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18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
This is an uplifting quote about the power of faith in Christ. But it does nothing to address the topic of this thread OR to prove the Bible is the only thing we should look to for wisdom.
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
I have no idea what your cut-and-paste is supposed to suggest. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible.
Based upon the history of the texts selected to be included in the Bible and all the lowly, greedy men involved in its various incarnations, it would only stand to reason that such individuals would create statements that require people never to question their book.
You simply can't convince me of any inerrancy in various versions of a book that have been at the heart of so much political power for so many centuries.
Therefore, you can't convince me God condemns homosexuals or, more to the point, asks you all to condemn them on his behalf based on that book.
But, for the sake of this conversation, it is absolutely necessary to include the assessments of the likes of JayMax and not discredit them without full scholarly consideration if one is to come to some conclusive assessment of what the Bible once said versus how it is interpreted today.
Just be careful in assuming what is "wisdom of the world". The very book you depend for God's guidance upon could very well fall into that category.
I have no idea what your cut-and-paste is supposed to suggest. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible.
Based upon the history of the texts selected to be included in the Bible and all the lowly, greedy men involved in its various incarnations, it would only stand to reason that such individuals would create statements that require people never to question their book or to find God within themselves.
You simply can't convince me of any inerrancy in various versions of a book that have been at the heart of so much political power for so many centuries.
Therefore, you can't convince me God condemns homosexuals or, more to the point, asks you all to condemn them on his behalf.
Be careful in assuming what is "wisdom of the world". The very book you depend upon could very well fall into that category for those who do not have ears to listen.
Perhaps you missed the topic of the thread. You know, homosexuality and what the Bible says about it. Feel free to join in.
Jaymax's approach in this study are completely valid.
I’m sorry if you think that I am saying Jaymax’s approach is not valid. On the contrary, I support her approach but not as a stand alone method. The method she is using needs Scriptural support. As it stands now she is resting her argument on a "one legged stool".
Quote:
Originally Posted by roneb
What is invalid is to give a blanket statement condemning "sexual immorality" when it is clear that you are using your own definition of immorality. If the original Hebrew or Greek is used, the definition is not so clear.
The whole of Scripture condemns sexual immorality. This is not a personal opinion it is God’s word. Some have alluded to the definitions of words not being clear and possibly even being mistranslated, however that component of the case has not yet been supported it has simply been alluded to. Please present a clear and concise case to support this opinion, if you are able.
The weakness in your answers is that you have completely misunderstood what the Holiness Code is.
I disagree. I stated earlier, God insists on His faithful to adhere to holiness – to be sanctified – committed to His commands. Indeed the New Testament, as well as the Old, echoes this message. I demonstrated this with four New Testament verses. You attempt to discredit their validity asserting that they have nothing to do with God’s call for His faithful to holiness. That is to be sanctified – set apart – devoted to God’s commands. All those verses call God’s faithful to be holy.
So far, you have pointed out that the verse in question is in between other verses, making it seem out of place, implying that it must not mean what it says. During your study in “cultural context” did the subject of variation of speech patterns between Hebrew and English arise? I propose that to conclude verse 22 is not a warning against homosexuality to all Israel based strictly on its placement between child sacrifice and bestiality would be inaccurate.
It would be quite helpful if you could present some evidence that God condones or accepts sexual immorality among His faithful. The thread topic is specific to the single issue of sexual immorality and the Bible so I fail see how diverting off that subject to the many “laws” concerning observances, rituals and dietary requirements would enhance the discussion topic at hand. Shall we move on to more Scriptural references for the sake of honest inquiry?
Therefore, you can't convince me God condemns homosexuals or, more to the point, asks you all to condemn them on his behalf based on that book.
What the Bible does do is explain that God hates "sin", not the person. If God hated people, then He would not have sent Jesus to die for the sake of mankind. He would not have made a way for His children to be reconciled to Himself. However, God is not only a loving, gracious and merciful God, He is also a just, righteous and HOLY God which means that ANY type of sin is egregious to Him....this is why we ALL need Jesus.
I’m sorry if you think that I am saying Jaymax’s approach is not valid. On the contrary, I support her approach but not as a stand alone method. The method she is using needs Scriptural support. As it stands now she is resting her argument on a "one legged stool".
One legged? Really?
Let's see how I was approaching the OP's request to "look at every verse pertaining to homosexuality whether directly or indirectly and discuss context, history, and definitions."
In regards to the indirect reference to homosexuality in Lev 18:22:
1. Cultural and historical context of the Israelites and Canaanites- check.
2. Looking at the Biblical context of the verse used- check (how and why Biblical scholars approach the chapters referred to as "The Holiness Code" . The chapters referred to are about the customs and laws which make the Israelites disctinct and separate from the surrounding pagans.
3. Using scripture to interpret the scripture of the specific line used in Lev 18:22 - check (References to cult prostitution in Deuteronomy 23:17) Reference to Deuteronomy 28 which has some similarities to the Leviticus chapters called the Holiness Code.
4. Looking at the definition of the Hebrew word "to'ebah" -check.(translated as "abomination", "ritually unclean" or "detestable" in English. Bibical scholars know it doesn't mean the same thing as the way we use "abomination" in modern times.
5. Supporting my argument with what both conservative and liberal authors have to say- check
Conservative anti-homosexual author Robert Gagnon:“Homosexual cult prostitution appears to have been the primary form in which homosexual intercourse was practiced in Israel."
More liberal author Steve Schuh :"In fact, idolatry is not just the primary context in which homosexual acts appear in the Old Testament – it is the only context. The homosexual acts prohibited in Leviticus 18 and 20 are described in the immediate context of idolatry and therefore very likely refer to ritual acts of male homosexual prostitution, as evidenced by at least five historical, biblical references. They appear beside other examples of idolatry intentionally, for they were, like child sacrifice, idol worship, and the sex rites of fertility cults, primary expressions of pagan religion."
6. Reference to a Biblical dictionary about the context of the Leviticus chapters in which the reference of Lev 18:22 is found- check. (4.) Laws Marking the separation between Israel and the heathen (17-20).Easton's Bible Dictionary
How is that approach in any way one-legged?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light
The whole of Scripture condemns sexual immorality.
Are you serious? This sounds like you think that ALL scripture is about sexual immorality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light
This is not a personal opinion it is God’s word. Some have alluded to the definitions of words not being clear and possibly even being mistranslated, however that component of the case has not yet been supported it has simply been alluded to. Please present a clear and concise case to support this opinion, if you are able.
It's definitely your personal opinion. And in my opinion, you haven't presented anything like a clear and concise case to support it.
Perhaps you missed the topic of the thread. You know, homosexuality and what the Bible says about it. Feel free to join in.
The point is that one must consider all the manuscripts, the original language, and all the iterations of the texts that would eventually be selected for the Bible to determine what the Bible actually says about homosexuality.
Simply posting quotes from the Bible as we know it today does not accomplish that task.
Jaymax's approach in this study are completely valid. What is invalid is to give a blanket statement condemning "sexual immorality" when it is clear that you are using your own definition of immorality. If the original Hebrew or Greek is used, the definition is not so clear. You say use the Scripture to interpret Scripture, but you are not doing that if you are only looking at a modern translation and NOT looking at historical context to try to establish the author's (and it hopefully follows - the Holy Spirit's) original intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly
^
Fundamentalists accuse any who derive a different meaning from the Bible than they do as "twisting scripture to create their own doctrine". It's just a psychological protectionist mechanism for those unwilling to engage in scholastic critique the manner of which is at the heart of any academic assessment of a text.
In reality, it is they who are (at the least) victims of efforts to twist scripture and are accepting those twisted texts as absolute.
I appreciate your efforts, JayMax, and have learned quite a bit. Thank you.
Thanks Roneb and Bluefy. I'm glad you learned something Bluefly - at least my efforts weren't completely useless.
All I'm trying to do is ask people who automatically believe that the Bible is CLEAR about a general condemnation of homosexuality, to actually spend a little time researching the basis for their belief. It's clear to me that the vast majority of people who think the Bible is Clear about this topic don't really have any clue of the cultural and historical context in which the references they use were written. Or know anything about the translation issues with verses like 1 Cor 6 as discussed by many Biblical scholars. This isn't limited to the Greek words "arsenokoites" and "malakoi" but also the translation of the Greek word "porneia" as "fornication" by the KJV translators.
I don't think it is too much to ask people to do a little research before they automatically condemn millions and millions of people in this world because of their sexual orientation. But apparently it IS too much to ask.
So far, there has been no REAL investigation of the scripture in question in this thread, apart from my own. Copying and pasting verses out of context with no explanation isn't what I would call "looking at every verse pertaining to homosexuality whether directly or indirectly and discuss context, history, and definitions."
Next time anyone runs into any male cult temple prostitutes worshipping Molech or the Roman fertility gods, feel free to bash them over the head with the Bible with a clear conscience.
I think that's it for me on this thread. It's clear no one here is prepared to spend the time seriously investigating this topic.
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