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I asked this question a couple of times in other threads but no one addressed it, maybe because it got buried under all the other issues that seem to hijack a thread these days so I thought I'd make a separate post. I really like some input regarding the questions I raise:
Quote:
The passing away of the heaven and earth is connected to the passing away and fulfillment of the Law. The heaven and earth are symbolic of the Old Covenant world which came to an end in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the temple. We are no longer under the law, but live under grace in the everlasting kingdom of Christ. The new heaven and new earth in the Revelation represent the new Covenant world and the eternal kingdom of Christ. There was a slight overlap between the fading away of the Old Covenant and the full establishment of the New Covenant (30-70 A.D). The book of Hebrews reflects this overlap, and encouraged the first century believers to continue in faith until the consummation of the age (Old Covenant) age, and the full estblishment of the New.
To which I replied:
Quote:
If the new heaven and earth were symbolic (meaning they didn't actually replace this physical earth) then we can rightly assume that this earth, this huge ball of dirt spinning in space, will continue until infinity, which raises several questions:
1. how will the earth's population sustain itself when its natural resources have been depleted in less than a hundred years?
2. what will the people do when nuclear war (an inevitability, no question about it) decimates the environment and plunges the earth into a nuclear winter?
3. even assuming the best (no nuclear war) how will 100+ (and ever growing) billion people live in a finite space called earth?
4. when the earth is plunged into another even darker age than the previous (500-1300 AD) how will humans sustain themselves when society completely breaks down?
5. Finally, 2 billion years or so down the pike, when the sun gets ready to supernova and explode (which it will, astronomical physics proves that) what happens this "new earth" then?
These are just a few of the issues facing mankind as it continues on its path of self destruction. These are not "if" scenarios but "when" ones, as they are destined to happen. God, who intervened dramatically in man's affairs in the beginning of the human experience, has now chosen to step back since 70 AD. What will God's role in all this be? I see no direct intervention by God as all these problems confront mankind. True, He will monitor them from a distance but don't expect any miraculous replentishments of earths natural resources, or nuclear bombs mysteriously disappearing in the skies as they hurtle towards their targets, etc. It just won't happen that way. Thoughts?
So, how do we, as non-dispensationalists, reconcile these inevitable, cataclysmic events with the notion that the earth will go on and on in its present state and there will be no physical lifting off of Christians in the wild blue--that they will remain to face the same disasters as non-believers?
These are good points, and I honestly don't know the answer to them. The heavens belong to the Lord, and the earth he has given to the sons of men (Psa.115:16). We are stewards of this planet, and have responsibility for what happens to it. I do believe in "world without end." (Eph.3:21), and the "earth abides forever" (Eccl.1:4). Will God allow the destruction of this planet? Will God allow what we allow? I honestly don't know all the answers, but I can pray that the glory of God fills the earth, and the kingdom continues to grow and advance. I can pray that the devices of the wicked will come to nought, and God's will be done. I can pray for future generations to come into the kingdom, and that destruction will not overtake this planet. Lets pray with a long term perspective, and believe God.
These are good points, and I honestly don't know the answer to them. The heavens belong to the Lord, and the earth he has given to the sons of men (Psa.115:16). We are stewards of this planet, and have responsibility for what happens to it. I do believe in "world without end." (Eph.3:21), and the "earth abides forever" (Eccl.1:4). Will God allow the destruction of this planet? Will God allow what we allow? I honestly don't know all the answers, but I can pray that the glory of God fills the earth, and the kingdom continues to grow and advance. I can pray that the devices of the wicked will come to nought, and God's will be done. I can pray for future generations to come into the kingdom, and that destruction will not overtake this planet. Lets pray with a long term perspective, and believe God.
Eph 3:21
eis(unto) pas(everyone/all) genea(the whole multitude of men living at the same time) aion(age) aions(ages) amen(for sure, to be certain) ...
Its funny how they translated "genea" into ages isn't it?
"Aion aions" is the same as the Hebrew "ád olam", and it means consummation of the ages, or until the end of the ages.
(See Isa 45:17)
"earth abideth for ever."
erets(earth) `amad(edures) `owlam(the age or ages) ...
It really does not make a bit of differance to me what God choses to do with this present earth. I have complete confidence in Him that it will only be for the better...what ever it is.
erets(earth) `amad(edures) `owlam(the age or ages) ...
Isaiah 45:17, the promise to Israel of everlasting (olam) salvation, world without end (until the ages of Eternity- Youngs Literal Translation) is fulfilled in Christ and the church (Eph.3:21 -to all generations of the age of the ages- Youngs Literal Translation). The kingdom age is the age of the ages. We are not living in some "church age" before the age of the ages (Dispensational view), we are living in the kingdom age. Jesus came at the end of the previous age (Hebrews 9:26- the full end of the ages-Youngs Literal Translation). The end of the ages, or consummation of the ages was the end of the previous age (the law). There is no future consummation of the ages, the consummation was the consummation of the plan of salvation for Israel and the arrival of the kingdom.
Hi, there are ages to come and a time when in the dispensation of the fullness of the times, when all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ. God bless.
Ephesians 1: 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church...
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say...
and there will come a time when Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father so that God may be all in all. ( 1 Corinthians 15) I believe that this leads to the reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ. An age has a beginning and an end, so this means to me that we will be in Him beyond the ages. When the ages are finished, we will live on. God transcends the ages and when He becomes all in all, we will also. God bless.
Isaiah 45:17, the promise to Israel of everlasting (olam) salvation, world without end (until the ages of Eternity- Youngs Literal Translation) is fulfilled in Christ and the church (Eph.3:21 -to all generations of the age of the ages- Youngs Literal Translation). The kingdom age is the age of the ages. We are not living in some "church age" before the age of the ages (Dispensational view), we are living in the kingdom age. Jesus came at the end of the previous age (Hebrews 9:26- the full end of the ages-Youngs Literal Translation). The end of the ages, or consummation of the ages was the end of the previous age (the law). There is no future consummation of the ages, the consummation was the consummation of the plan of salvation for Israel and the arrival of the kingdom.
The age of ages is when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, this present age is the kingdom in mysterie(church) age, or dispensation of Grace.
Olam doesn't mean everlasting, it means beyond the horizon or a time beyond our ability to see.
When all men make their weapons into plow sheers then the kingdom age will be fully manifest and the day of the lord will have commenced, not until then.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 06-14-2009 at 05:29 PM..
Hi, there are ages to come and a time when in the dispensation of the fullness of the times, when all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ. God bless.
Ephesians 1: 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church...
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say...
and there will come a time when Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father so that God may be all in all. ( 1 Corinthians 15) I believe that this leads to the reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ. An age has a beginning and an end, so this means to me that we will be in Him beyond the ages. When the ages are finished, we will live on. God transcends the ages and when He becomes all in all, we will also. God bless.
The age to come (Eph.1:21) is literally the age about to come (melonti). That age was at hand and about to come when Paul wrote it. It was at hand and soon to come when John saw it in the Revelation. It is not an age thousands of years removed from the context. The dispensation of the fullness of times is the same as thr restoration or restitution of all things mentioned by Peter (Acts 3:21). This is also the regeneration when the disciples would sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). The gathering, restoration, and regeneration are connected to Israel, and were consummated at the end of their age (the Law). When you divorce the consummation, restoration and regeneration from Israel, you end up with ultimate reconciliation. 1 Corinthians 15 is also connected to the law (1 Cor.15:55-56). Jesus did subdue his enemies (Luke 19:27). His enemies were those who rejected his rule and kingdom (But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us- Luke 19:14). They even recognized him as the heir and killed him (Luke 20:14). He came and destroyed those husbandmen and burned up their city (Luke 20:16; Matthew 22:7). He put his enemies under his feet.
To deliver up the kingdom to God does not mean to "give it up" and cease to reign or be king, but rather to raise it up or restore it to it's rightful place. Christ will never "give up" his kingdom nor will ever cease to reign (Rev.11:15). He did, however, rescue a kingdom "overturned by apostasy" (Ezekial 21:27) dominated by Gentile powers and claimed by Satan. You cannot divorce these scriptures from Israel and their first century context.
Last edited by jeapostle; 06-14-2009 at 05:33 PM..
Reason: misspelling
As i ponder the immediate future of earth I see the following:
1. how will the earth's population sustain itself when its natural resources have been depleted in less than a hundred years? Answer: it won't; there will have to be a tremendous kill-off of the population, something powerful secret organizations are planning even as I type
2. what will the people do when nuclear war (an inevitability, no question about it) decimates the environment and plunges the earth into a nuclear winter? Answer: see the 1983 TV film, "The Day After" for a good look; better, the British film, "Threads" both on YouTube.
3. even assuming the best (no nuclear war) how will 100+ (and ever growing) billion people live in a finite space called earth? they won't; how their demise comes about is uncertain; what is certain is that it will come
4. when the earth is plunged into another even darker age than the previous (500-1300 AD) how will humans sustain themselves when society completely breaks down? Answer: somehow a small remnant of civilization will survive & eke out some sort of existence with the few remaining resources.
5. Finally, 2 billion years or so down the pike, when the sun gets ready to supernova and explode (which it will, astronomical physics proves that) what happens this "new earth" then? Answer: it won't matter. Man will have died out long before.
These answers assume no Godly intervention. What is beyond dispute is that God MUST intervene big-time to save mankind from himself because at the rate we're going we will destroy ourselves in less than 200 years when the climate changes so radically that life cannot survive on this planet.
The age of ages is when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, this present age is the kingdom in mysterie(church) age, or dispensation of Grace.
Olam doesn't mean everlasting, it means beyond the horizon or a time beyond our ability to see.
When all men make their weapons into plow sheers then the kingdom age will be fully manifest and the day of the lord will have commenced, not until then.
Ironmaw,
Still looking for a physical kingdom in the future. Jesus said the kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). What do you do with this scripture?
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