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Old 07-13-2009, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,815 posts, read 1,962,858 times
Reputation: 1006

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The following is a translation of a part from a writing of the German evangelical professor Ernst Ferdinand Stroeter (1846-1922):

The further accommodations of the author of this pamphlet (against Universalism) really pleased us:

"Likewise is the belief that finally all creatures get saved and become blessed extremely glorious and superior. This alone seems worthy of a God of love. A lot of verses seem to support this view. There is no Christian heart on which this thought isn’t appealing."

We thank our dear brother from the bottom of our heart for such open and manful words. We’re convinced that they’ll find a warm echo at all true children of God.

Why don’t they accept so obviously and clear words like 1 Timothy 4:10, that God is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe? Where‘s the difficulty? - Can it be cleared through careful studying?

Let‘s hear the author by himself, how he considers the topic as a honest but traditional exponent of the church‘s teaching of endless torment.

He says: "But there is spoken of eternal damnation and eternal torment again and again in the strongest terms. If you want to say that the words for eternal and eternity don‘t always have the meaning of endless duration, then the argument of the great Augustine is true, that when is spoken of life and bliss they can‘t keep their meaning too, and that there could no longer be spoken about eternal life (Mt. 25:46)."

We gladly notice that our brother makes no attempt to deny, that such words of God like 1 Timothy 4:10 teach without doubt that God really is the Savior of all men, not only desires to be. That’s a great benefit for our study. But what’s about the serious stumbling block he mentioned? It’s characteristic, that his only argument is the biblical use of the words that have been translated with “eternal” and “eternity”. This is the adversarial argument, which is the clearest for the common and uneducated reader.

If we can prove from the Bible, in a way that the common man from among the people will understand that the great Augustine and all that use the same argument became victim of a fallacy, then is this biggest stumbling block and most popular argument against the belief that God is indeed the Savior of all men refuted for every straight thinking man.

We forbear from doing a scholarly examination and want to speak to the common people that only know and accept the Scripture. How do we want to prove that Augustine was wrong?

He said: "If the words talking about the doom of the wicked don’t mean endless duration, then the life and the bliss of the saved have also no endless duration."

If it‘s now possible to demonstrate that the Scripture obviously used the words for "eternal" and "eternity" in the same sentence once applied to something that by its nature can only thought to be infinite and the other time on something that by its nature can never be thought infinite, then Augustine’s conclusion can only be considered as unscriptural.

Let’s look upon two Bible words, the one is written in Romans 16:25-26, …according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal (aiōnios) times, but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōnios) God…

There is no need for scholarliness to recognize that times in their nature can never be infinite or eternal, but they are obvious with the same word designated that is used to denote the eternal God. On the other hand no one needs to prove that God in his nature can only thought of being infinite.

If Augustine had used the same logic here as in Matthew 25:46, then he could have said, if the times called eternal here were not infinite - then God called eternal here is not infinite too - a blatant fallacy.

We have a similar example in Titus 1:2 (also 2Tim 1:9) …on hope of eternal (aiōnios) life which the God who does not lie promised before eternal (aiōnios) timesIf there is a linguistic term that is fundamentally different from infinity, then it is "time" or "times". Nevertheless are they called "eternal" (aiōnios), a striking proof that this adjective itself is not suitable to denote infinity.


All adjectives that refer to God and His life get their true meaning from there, but not the way round. Wherever the word translated "eternal" (Greek: aiōnios - aeonian or age-long), refers to creature, men or mere human conditions or circumstances it never has the sense of infinity cause nothing creatural can be thought of being infinite, unless it partook in the divine nature of divine life and entity.


Our appreciated brother and friend in the adversarial camp concludes now from Augustine’s words: "Nobody has proved yet, that the Scriptures doesn’t teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked."

After our examination we just want to answer in similar words:

Nobody has sure proved yet, that the words of the Bible teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked.

Also this proof will never be adduced as long the Scripture alone and not human philosophy has to determine which sense the word translated with "eternal" has.

As long as this proof can’t be adduced without any gap, it is at least very bold to forbid the ordinary children of God believing their heavenly God and Father on his word, that He was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2Co 5:19) and that God will be all in all (1Co 15:28).
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Oak Point, TX
7,609 posts, read 12,535,769 times
Reputation: 4591
There is a seeming contradiction between scriptures proclaiming restitution and those telling us of damnation. I believe both, because we will see both in our members.

Andrew Jukes laid it out well by explaining the “mystery of the will of our ever blessed God as to the process and stages of redemption”.

Quote:
(1) First, His will by some to bless and save others; by a first-born seed, “the first born from the dead,” (Col 1:18.) to save and bless the later-born:--
(2) His will therefore to work out the redemption of the lost by successive ages or dispensations, or, to use the language of St. Paul, “according to the purpose of the ages:” (Eph 3:11.)—and
(3) Lastly, His will (thus meeting the nature of our fall,) to make death, judgment, and destruction, the means and way to life, acquittal, and salvation; in other words, “through death to destroy him that has the power of death, that is the devil, and to deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”(Heb 2:14.)
Personally, I don't see enough among Christian circles explaining the refining that simply is a part of God's nature (He is a consuming fire). The Cross is refused in our lives today, in exchange for comfort and self-preservation.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:41 PM
 
Location: NC
12,157 posts, read 14,790,474 times
Reputation: 1361
Thanks for sharing. God bless.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:03 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,124,483 times
Reputation: 644
The doctrine for God saving all mankind, really does not hinge on the words eternal meaning age, but it most often argued that way.

It is often instructive to realize that for the most part all translations contain a mixture of figurative and literal language, but all translations labeled literal never contain the words everlasting or eternal in the key verses always asserted to show universalisms error.

Ancient Hebrew scholars that study the language as opposed to theological translation do not see everlasting or eternal as a part of that language. I have read where they dislike the inference of ancient greek abstract terms like everlasting and eternal applied to old testament translation.

When you have information such as this, then Gods word as a whole takes on a greater scope of meaning. There is no longer a real argument over which one is correct when we can understand that Gods correction can seem like forever, or that we may not be able to percieve it's ending, but literally it does end.

We can also see that God's corrective nature is eternal, but when finite beings are subjected to it, the process of purification is temporary. It realy displays the awe of God.

Really, what's so awesome about a God who eventually gives up on most of his creation whether they have free will or not? I know that bothers a lot of people, as it always seems like I'm dissing their God but really, what is so awesome about that?

Men give up all the time.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,147,613 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
The doctrine for God saving all mankind
Is a lie from the devil..
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:27 AM
 
Location: San Jacinto
46 posts, read 54,695 times
Reputation: 30
Default Everlasting punishment hoax

[SIZE=3]HELLO EVERYONE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]It would be enlightening for all of you to take the time to read some booklets that have many Biblical passages to prove the case. This whole thread just bounces around and does not come to wise conclusions. It takes time and effort, and prayer, to get a good grasp of truth and avoid the evil teachings of the "church" starting back just after the fourth century after our Saviour died for ALL.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/altar.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]BOB TODD, SAN JACINTO, CA[/SIZE]
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:30 AM
 
Location: San Jacinto
46 posts, read 54,695 times
Reputation: 30
Default Everlasting punishment hoax (2)

[SIZE=3]Continued from last post…[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]HELLO EVERYONE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]It would be enlightening for all of you to take the time to read some booklets that have many Biblical passages to prove the case. This whole thread just bounces around and does not come to wise conclusions. It takes time and effort, and prayer, to get a good grasp of truth and avoid the evil teachings of the "church" starting back just after the fourth century after our Saviour died for ALL.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/castigo.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/hurleypp.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd2/freewillnote.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~k7vhq/stevenson.html[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~k7vhq/cpcoffice.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]http://home.earthlink.net/~k7vhq/eternity.htm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]BOB TODD, SAN JACINTO, CA[/SIZE]
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 2,980,948 times
Reputation: 253
Default Hell's permanence disputed

Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
The following is a translation of a part from a writing of the German evangelical professor Ernst Ferdinand Stroeter (1846-1922):

The further accommodations of the author of this pamphlet (against Universalism) really pleased us:

"Likewise is the belief that finally all creatures get saved and become blessed extremely glorious and superior. This alone seems worthy of a God of love. A lot of verses seem to support this view. There is no Christian heart on which this thought isn’t appealing."

We thank our dear brother from the bottom of our heart for such open and manful words. We’re convinced that they’ll find a warm echo at all true children of God.

Why don’t they accept so obviously and clear words like 1 Timothy 4:10, that God is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe? Where‘s the difficulty? - Can it be cleared through careful studying?

Let‘s hear the author by himself, how he considers the topic as a honest but traditional exponent of the church‘s teaching of endless torment.

He says: "But there is spoken of eternal damnation and eternal torment again and again in the strongest terms. If you want to say that the words for eternal and eternity don‘t always have the meaning of endless duration, then the argument of the great Augustine is true, that when is spoken of life and bliss they can‘t keep their meaning too, and that there could no longer be spoken about eternal life (Mt. 25:46)."

We gladly notice that our brother makes no attempt to deny, that such words of God like 1 Timothy 4:10 teach without doubt that God really is the Savior of all men, not only desires to be. That’s a great benefit for our study. But what’s about the serious stumbling block he mentioned? It’s characteristic, that his only argument is the biblical use of the words that have been translated with “eternal” and “eternity”. This is the adversarial argument, which is the clearest for the common and uneducated reader.

If we can prove from the Bible, in a way that the common man from among the people will understand that the great Augustine and all that use the same argument became victim of a fallacy, then is this biggest stumbling block and most popular argument against the belief that God is indeed the Savior of all men refuted for every straight thinking man.

We forbear from doing a scholarly examination and want to speak to the common people that only know and accept the Scripture. How do we want to prove that Augustine was wrong?

He said: "If the words talking about the doom of the wicked don’t mean endless duration, then the life and the bliss of the saved have also no endless duration."

If it‘s now possible to demonstrate that the Scripture obviously used the words for "eternal" and "eternity" in the same sentence once applied to something that by its nature can only thought to be infinite and the other time on something that by its nature can never be thought infinite, then Augustine’s conclusion can only be considered as unscriptural.

Let’s look upon two Bible words, the one is written in Romans 16:25-26, …according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal (aiōnios) times, but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōnios) God…

There is no need for scholarliness to recognize that times in their nature can never be infinite or eternal, but they are obvious with the same word designated that is used to denote the eternal God. On the other hand no one needs to prove that God in his nature can only thought of being infinite.

If Augustine had used the same logic here as in Matthew 25:46, then he could have said, if the times called eternal here were not infinite - then God called eternal here is not infinite too - a blatant fallacy.

We have a similar example in Titus 1:2 (also 2Tim 1:9) …on hope of eternal (aiōnios) life which the God who does not lie promised before eternal (aiōnios) timesIf there is a linguistic term that is fundamentally different from infinity, then it is "time" or "times". Nevertheless are they called "eternal" (aiōnios), a striking proof that this adjective itself is not suitable to denote infinity.

All adjectives that refer to God and His life get their true meaning from there, but not the way round. Wherever the word translated "eternal" (Greek: aiōnios - aeonian or age-long), refers to creature, men or mere human conditions or circumstances it never has the sense of infinity cause nothing creatural can be thought of being infinite, unless it partook in the divine nature of divine life and entity.

Our appreciated brother and friend in the adversarial camp concludes now from Augustine’s words: "Nobody has proved yet, that the Scriptures doesn’t teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked."

After our examination we just want to answer in similar words:

Nobody has sure proved yet, that the words of the Bible teach the infinity of the damnation and torment of the wicked.

Also this proof will never be adduced as long the Scripture alone and not human philosophy has to determine which sense the word translated with "eternal" has.

As long as this proof can’t be adduced without any gap, it is at least very bold to forbid the ordinary children of God believing their heavenly God and Father on his word, that He was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2Co 5:19) and that God will be all in all (1Co 15:28).
Question to svenM.
Did you get the above part from a writing of the German evangelical professor Ernst Ferdinand Stroeter from his writing called
THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S RECONCILIATION OF ALL IN CHRIST ?
If so, did you find that entire writing on the internet somewhere?
And if so, can you give me the link? Thanks!

You might also be interested to know that it was translated into English by J.H. Tonn, of Roseburg, Oregon, who died last December 27th.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:52 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,885,514 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
The doctrine for God saving all mankind
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Is a lie from the devil..
Be careful about ascribing that which is of God to the devil. The Pharisees did the same thing concerning the miracles of Jesus.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:05 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,179 posts, read 19,272,758 times
Reputation: 11476
Universalism puts the love of God before His justice. it infers that God will compromise His Holiness, which is the combination of His justice and righteousness. But God puts His righteousness before His love. Divine love must be filtered through His justice. His Holiness is His essence. And it is His glory. And nothing is more important to God than His glory. He cannot change who and what He is by compromising any facet of His essence.

God's justice must be satisfied before His love can be expressed to His creatures, whether angels or man. What the righteousness of God approves of, the justice of God must bless. But what the righteousness of God disapproves of, the justice of God must curse. The only way that God could provide salvation for man without compromising Himself was to send Christ into the world to die for the sins of man and pay the price, the penalty for those sins. Christ died for everyone and thereby removed the barrier that stood between man and God. But each person must make an individual and personal decision to step over the line where the barrier used to be. If he chooses not to believe in Christ for salvation, then he refuses to avail himself of the one way that a just and holy God could express His love in a way that would not compromise who and what He is.

Since God is immutable and cannot change, then He cannot at any time in the eternal future bring into His presence fallen and lost mankind which, while they were alive on the earth rejected God's offer of salvation. They must, because of God's Holiness remain separated from God for all eternity by their own choice.

Ages with regard to periods of time have to do with the dispesations of human history. Such as the age of the gentiles; the Jewish age or age of Israel ; the Church age; the age of Christ or millennium. These ages, these dispesations have a beginning and they have an end. They are a part of human history. But outside of human history, and outside of time, is eternity. And God's eternal nature does not change at any point in eternity. The demands of His Holiness endure forever, and the lost are lost forever.

Universalism makes makes a mockery out of the Cross and a liar out of God. But God is truth and God can not be mocked.

Universalism does not even recognize the reason that God created us in the first place. That reason being the angelic conflict. If you don't know what that is, I posted it on a different post. Or you can find information about it on Google.
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