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To me its obvious. Now mind you, i didn't say everyone who believes it(ET), i said many. I understand that most who believe in ET are simply brain washed, like Germany during the third reich, who believed it was okay not only to invade other countries in an attempt to spread their empire, but to torture and kill millions of people for experimentation or purely out of elitist beliefs that put certain types of people on the fringes of society in the position of animals and marginalized their humanity.
If ET is the issue, then what keeps some that believ e in ET from being monsters too?
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I believe the same thing is being done in Christianity today, and has been going on for 1400 years now. To the point were a massive portion of Christians today are either cowards and believe because they fear torture in the afterlife, or believe because they are bullies and think it makes them better then people who don't believe the same way they do.
So where is the differential that shows universalists that are arguing and accusing having any greater character?
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I have been dealing with bullies and thieves all my life. I have been shot at, stabbed in the back, beaten, broken, extorted and cast out all my life by people. And this is what i see happening largely in Christendom today on a spiritual level who claim to believe in a God of love. Many Christian have never suffered severe pain at the hands of others in this life, yet they are so ready to see the vast majority of the world tortured in the cosmic basement of hell for an eternity and they act like its a good thing.
I understand your point, but actually the majority that I have been around simply place it on the level of a choice. I can disagree in the manner of how that choice comes about, but there is little evidence that their belief of the existance of an eternal hell makes them anything close to a monster.
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Like somehow this Glorifies God ... If this is not a monstrous concept what is?
Don't shift over to the concept now, there is a difference between a monsterous concept and someone actually behaving in a manner that it is valid to call them one.
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Why do you think Bush was able to get away with torturing so many "terrorists" in the open and Christian Americans when asked if torture was okay said they thought it was?
What about those who were against it, who are they and were they believers in any capacity of ET?
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Is this not a sign of national spiritual corruption? I'm sorry, but i call a spade a spade friend.
And I am calling how I see it. I like to try to be uplifting and I call doctrines for how I see them, but my beliefs do not exhonerate me from anything. A universalist often sees themselves as having the greater truth so that then allows them to cast the light of accusation on others and of course, there is no difference in what their doing in comparison to who they point the finger at.
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I'm personally fed up with the hypocrisy
So then you hide your own? To say that your on the side of the greater doctrine so you can call someone whatever you like and as long as you can write an essay explaining why it's ok, then it is?
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But i will not wear kid gloves just to be politically correct. Im not going to single anyone out, but i will generalize in order to make my point which i believe is long over due.
Not asking you to be politically correct, live the standard universalism is supposed to be about, where is the real difference being demonstrated?
I agree phaselwood - The doctrine is the issue not the person - however All people have wicked tendencies that need to be overcome. That is the flesh.
As a universalist the last thing I believe is that All people do not have those tendencies. And as a universalist that belief in no way sanctifies me above another.
If ET is the issue, then what keeps some that believ e in ET from being monsters too?
I first want to say that i appreciate where you are coming from. To answer your questions ...
Thats a good question. Does believing that the vast majority of humanity are going to be tortured by the god of love for eternity effect the way people treat one another? Is spiritual, psychological and emotional abuse more acceptable that physical abuse? From my experience most people who believe in ET are simply afraid and are unwilling to rock the boat on the grounds that it might put them in the position of anethema from the acceptable standards of the organized religion to which they belong. Was a German in the time of Hitler who went along with the murder and displacement of millions of people in their country for fear of bringing down the wrath of the third reich on their own heads any less responsible for what happened? I will not say who is more or less monstrous, as i believe them all to be deceived one way or the other.
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So where is the differential that shows universalists that are arguing and accusing having any greater character?
I can only go from my personal experience. Who has more character, someone willing to stand up to the bully, or one who cowers in his presence, or one who backs him up? What is character anyway? In my opinion it takes character to meet adversity head on.
Lets define character then shall we? These definitions are taken from dictionary.com. These are the definitions of the word that i think you refer to when you say character in this context.
Is it moral or ethical to agree that most humans deserve and must be tortured for an eternity?
Is it courageous to bow down to the standards and teachings of other men or traditions of men even when they are obviously immoral or unethical?
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I understand your point, but actually the majority that I have been around simply place it on the level of a choice. I can disagree in the manner of how that choice comes about, but there is little evidence that their belief of the existance of an eternal hell makes them anything close to a monster.
In my opinion this idea that it is the choice of the vast majority of humans is to suffer eternal torture instead of accepting the truth of God is completely illogical and irrational. I believe it to be a cop-out and a convenient though absurd way to pass the buck. all humans are monstrous by nature ... The concept of eternal torture is only the magnification and greatest manifestation of human monstrosity. Double standards don't make it any less true. I believe fundamental and organized Christianity has become the most diabolical organization on the planet today. I know there are many Good people who have been brainwashed to believe these monstrous absurdities, and that they themselves are victims of this terrible perversion of the word of God. But given enough time the doctrine of eternal torture only leads to one of two places. Either final rejection of such fallacious beliefs, or the eventual callousness of the heart toward those who do not share the same belief system.
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Don't shift over to the concept now, there is a difference between a monsterous concept and someone actually behaving in a manner that it is valid to call them one.
Not much, in the end the concept defines the character of the persons in question. The concept as an archetypal reality delegates the way people feel about and treat others. The doctrine of eternal torture leads to double mindedness in regard to redemption and love. I have witnessed the effect time and time again.
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What about those who were against it, who are they and were they believers in any capacity of ET?
If they believe in ET and were against torturing people on this planet now in order to accomplish whatever ends, that to me is a double standard. But if they are unwilling to torture people themselves and find it immoral then how can they turn around and say its okay if God does it? Are we not convicted of moral judgment by the very spirit of God? Is God double minded? God will not be mocked ...
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And I am calling how I see it. I like to try to be uplifting and I call doctrines for how I see them, but my beliefs do not exhonerate me from anything. A universalist often sees themselves as having the greater truth so that then allows them to cast the light of accusation on others and of course, there is no difference in what their doing in comparison to who they point the finger at.
I live by my convictions. I am honest about my feelings. I am only speaking my mind fully now because i'm identifying with the OP concerning my own frustrations and exasperation with organized religion, especially Christianity. I'm calling it as i see it too friend. I might be wrong, and if i am so be it. I tired and weak for all these violent physical and psychological afflictions and condemnations placed on humanity in the name of God.
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So then you hide your own? To say that your on the side of the greater doctrine so you can call someone whatever you like and as long as you can write an essay explaining why it's ok, then it is?
If i saw someone beating up someone else in order to subject them to their will i would call them a monster and a bully. If i saw a man beating his wife and children i call them a monster and a bully and a bad parent. If i see a spiritual leader placing heavy burdens on his people which he himself would not willingly bare i would call him a despot and a tyrant. I'm a sinner ... I know that the only reason i believe the way i do Is because God has placed it in my heart. I know that it is his will that many are blinded to the truth. But that doesn't mean i should pretend that its acceptable or okay. Christ knew very well that God had blinded the pharisees, did it stop him from using them as an example of Evil and Corruption gone to seed?
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Not asking you to be politically correct, live the standard universalism is supposed to be about, where is the real difference being demonstrated?
I don't live by general religious standards. I'm don't believe in universal reconciliation because its nice and friendly. I believe it because i belie Gods power to transform is almighty, and that he is love. I hope my words do offend in as much as it causes some few to question the validity of their indoctrination. I answer to God as well as anyone else, not to any man in the end. I believe and am convicted in my spirit that its high time to storm the fortress of hell which in my opinion has taken over Christianity. I'm gunning for them. I not pulling any punches. This is spiritual war in my opinion. So pardon me if you think that these words are unbecoming of your sensibilities ... But don't misunderstand. Though we might agree on UR, i'm am militant in m y desire to fight for what i believe is true. It takes all types, and i'm a fighter through and through. I have been fighting all my life against bullies and impostors. And i am only just beginning to fight. Someone has to do it, even though it might cast me in a bad light in the minds of even those who believe in the way that i do. I'm not here to feel good or make people happy. I'm here to fight for the truth and tear down the walls of debauchery. I'm here to fight the good fight in the face of all adversity.
God bless you phazel i trust you are living by your own convictions in earnest, i believe you to be a genuine person as far as i am able to tell by your words. You can expect the same from me, its just that we are two very different people, and have very different ways of going about it. Selah ...
There is a time and a place for everything under the sun ... A time for kind words and edification, and a time for hard truths and judgment.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-22-2009 at 05:29 PM..
As a universalist the last thing I believe is that All people do not have those tendencies. And as a universalist that belief in no way sanctifies me above another.
I totally agree .....that is what I thought you were saying, and that is what I agree with ......... doctrines need to be explored and see if they stand up to scrutiny, not the people attacked for believing the doctrine.
I am one of those. I found compelling evidence for both sides. That's why I am more and more not trusting modern translations of the bible. I believe they have totally obliterated the original texts. That's why we cannot come to any authoritative conclusion on anything that's debated in here, because the bible is so contradictory. It makes Christians the laughing stock of the world.
I have to say that i appreciate your words ... It takes guts to admit that on the surface the bible in its contemporary translation seems to contradict itself. That is where i was before I came to believe in UR. I don't know where God is leading you, but i'm sure as long as you stay honest with yourself like you have demonstrated with these words it will be a better understanding of him. Thank you for your candidness Thrillobyte ... And God bless you friend.
"Present your case," says the LORD. Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King."
Do you think in judgement day we will be able to say before the Lord, "Lord, this is what I read in the Bible; this is what I was taught. How did I know it was contrary to Your Holy Word? Do I deserve punishment when I sincerely thought this was what You wanted me to believe?"
Possibly. I don't think the Lord will judge us for what we didn't know. Many stripes for those who knew much, be few stripes for those who knew little.
Also, is it punishment we will receive or correction? The words for "eternal punishment" can also be translated as "age-lasting correction".
We all need correction at some point. The judgment may feel like punishment but we will also learn the truth.
We have to get this idea out of our head that judgment is bad and has no purpose. God's judgment is righteous and good. And by righteous and good I don't mean eternal hell. I mean God's righteous judgments teach people. Look at Isaiah 26:9. The people learn righteousness when God's judgments come. Sounds like the outcome will be good, even if its not fun at the time.
Look at all the judgments we go through in this life. A child learns not to behave badly when the child gets a few spankings or trips to the naughty corner. It may not be fun for the child at the time, but the child learns, and the outcome is good for everyone: the child learns how to behave properly and interact with others, and the parents have a happier well-behaved child.
That is how I view God's judgments. God isn't going to burn people in literal fire until they say "UNCLE". God's judgments are always applicable and fit the purpose. We reap what we sow.
Read Romans 2.
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
People quote Romans 2:5 as proof of "hell". Look! Your gonna get God's wrath! HELL FOR YOU! OOOHEEHOOH! But they never look at the next verse. God's wrath is simply giving to each person according to what he has done. Its happening now as we speak.
This is about reaping what we sow. This is talking about works - what we have done. Works have no bearing on our salvation. But they have a huge bearing on how we are judged. Everyone will get what they deserve in judgment. And the outcome of that judgment will be righteousness for all. Just like the misbehaving child who is judged and finally becomes well behaved.
Churchianity just confuses the matter by falsely assuming Judgment = damnation = condemnation = wrath = HELL.
Just some of my thoughts on this fine evening, sorry for the length, I went on a bit longer than I was intending...
Thank you for your candidness Thrillobyte ... And God bless you friend.
Thank you, Iron. However:
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Hitler and Stalin and all the other maniacs throughout time have nothing on God if the teaching of ETERNAL TORTURE is true
I think making a comparison between God and Hitler/Stalin is grievous. God CANNOT commit an injustice under ANY circumstances, regardless of how unjust it might appear to us mortals. We see God condemning humans to eternal torment and pass judgement on Him without first recognizing that their crime, the total rejection of Jesus' precious sacrifice---God's own "flesh and blood" so to speak---is an unspeakably heinous act of cosmic proportions, fully deserving of ET. In terms of comparing the value of gifts, someone who rejects a drunk's gift of his p*sspot cannot even begin to be compared to someone slinging the King of Sweden's gift of a 1000 YO family heirloom into a cesspool. And yet, that last act cannot even be called infinitessimal, so minute is it in comparison with the rejection of Jesus.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-22-2009 at 10:36 PM..
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