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There are two statements of Paul about Justification (forgiveness of sins)
which seem to contradict each other.
VERSE 1. (Romans 3:20)
"Therefore by the deeds of the LAW there shall no flesh be
JUSTIFIED in His sight."
VERSE 2. (Romans 2:13)
"For not the hearers of the LAW are just before God, but
the doers of the LAW shall be JUSTIFIED."
The question is "How can both of these verses be true?" The answer is that
verse #1 refers to HOW WE ARE JUSTIFIED,
while verse #2 refers to WHO IS JUSTIFIED.
VERSE 1. HOW JUSTIFIED:
No one can be JUSTIFIED (forgiven) by keeping the law for even though
we keep every commandment from this day forward, someone must pay for
the sins we have already committed. We are justified by faith in Christ.
VERSE 2. WHO JUSTIFIED:
On the other hand, only the "DOERS OF THE LAW will be justified
before God." Therefore it must follow that only the doers of the law have
a genuine faith in Christ.
That is why John wrote:
Here is a call for the endurance of the Saints,
Those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD,
and the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST."
Rev 14:12
One cannot be good enough to earn justification, however once Justified
one must cease to commit willfull sin or they will earn the destruction
reserved for rebellious Christians...
Exactly - no one can be justified by keeping the law - we are justified by faith - BUT who is it that has the faith that justifies???
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
We have to make ALL the verses fit together - you are only looking at one part and think that is all there is...
Take another look
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Only those who obey have the faith that justifies!
HK
You are taking this verse completely out of context. The point Paul is making to the romans is that a man who lives by the law of his conscience is a law unto himself. Those who heard the law where the Hebrews. Those who did not hear the Law were the gentiles. The fact is everyone has broken the law and continues to do so in their lives until they die. All are guilty, non are righteous, no one can boast. If your boasting you are setting yourself up for a fall. Christ came for the unrighteous, to justify the ungodly.
You are taking this verse completely out of context. The point Paul is making to the romans is that a man who lives by the law of his conscience is a law unto himself. Those who heard the law where the Hebrews. Those who did not hear the Law were the gentiles. The fact is everyone has broken the law and continues to do so in their lives until they die. All are guilty, non are righteous, no one can boast. If your boasting you are setting yourself up for a fall. Christ came for the unrighteous, to justify the ungodly.
I did not expect you to agree - only that others can see your selective vision.
HK
"When you can not answer scream "Out Of Context!" Anon
There are two statements of Paul about Justification (forgiveness of sins)
which seem to contradict each other.
VERSE 1. (Romans 3:20)
"Therefore by the deeds of the LAW there shall no flesh be
JUSTIFIED in His sight."
VERSE 2. (Romans 2:13)
"For not the hearers of the LAW are just before God, but
the doers of the LAW shall be JUSTIFIED."
The question is "How can both of these verses be true?" The answer is that
verse #1 refers to HOW WE ARE JUSTIFIED,
while verse #2 refers to WHO IS JUSTIFIED.
VERSE 1. HOW JUSTIFIED:
No one can be JUSTIFIED (forgiven) by keeping the law for even though
we keep every commandment from this day forward, someone must pay for
the sins we have already committed. We are justified by faith in Christ.
VERSE 2. WHO JUSTIFIED:
On the other hand, only the "DOERS OF THE LAW will be justified
before God." Therefore it must follow that only the doers of the law have
a genuine faith in Christ.
That is why John wrote:
Here is a call for the endurance of the Saints,
Those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD,
and the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST."
Rev 14:12
One cannot be good enough to earn justification, however once Justified
one must cease to commit willfull sin or they will earn the destruction
reserved for rebellious Christians...
HK
Alright, let's consider Romans 2:13 in its proper context.
Romans 2 begins with the word, "Therefore," which is harkening back to Romans 1. "Therefore" is a conjunction, which binds the two chapters together.
In Romans 1, Paul is speaking to the Believers in Rome, some of whom were previously Jews, under the law. In that Chapter, he talks about how those who have rejected the Righteousness of God (ie: Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ) behave and even points out that God himself has given them over to a reprobate mind and allowed them to fulfill their lusts BECAUSE the refuse to believe.
In Chapter 2, he makes the case that they have no excuse for judging others as the truth of God is right in front of them and because they too are as sinful as the next guy. He goes on to point out that those unbelievers are preserving to themselves the righteous judgments of God on judgment day. God is righteous and will render unto every man the judgment he deserves.
Next, Paul explains that God is no respecter of persons, that each of us shall reap the reward we deserve: Those who do "good," (ie: Accept Christ on faith) will reap our reward of eternal life and, those who reject "good," will reap eternal damnation.
Verse 13 is among several contained within parenthesis, which means it refers back to what came before and is an addendum, a further comment upon what came before. So, let's look at those verses within the parentheses:
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Verse 12 explains the difference between Gentiles and Jews. The Gentiles (any non-Jew) was not given the law, yet they are still sinners and under condemnation because of the so-called "original sin" of Adam. The Jews, on the other hand, have received the law and are subject to it.
Verse 13 is the first contained within parenthesis, so it's referring to what came just before; the Jews. They are "hearers of the law" and will be justified before God by their obedience to the law. But, as we all well know, no one can do ALL the law and, hence, cannot be justified.
Beginning in verses 14 and 15, Paul shifts gears and talks about the Gentiles having the law written on their hearts and knowing when they've transgressed it. Do you know any un-saved, un-redeemed people who live lives of disobedience and KNOW IT in their hearts, even if they've never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached? I do. In fact, I know several who just instinctively know they're doing wrong and that's exactly the people Paul is talking about here. They may not have been taught the law, but they KNOW they're doing wrong and, hence, are as much under the judgment of God as are the Jews who HAVE heard the law and rebel against it.
Paul wraps this up in verse 16 by explaining that God will judge all men BY JESUS CHRIST, according to the Gospel preached by Paul. In other words, ALL men, whether Jew or Gentile, will be judged by their reliance upon the shed blood of Christ for their redemption and salvation by faith, because that's the Gospel Paul preached! He never preached anything else.
Next, Paul explains that God is no respecter of persons, that each of us shall reap the reward we deserve: Those who do "good," (ie: Accept Christ on faith) will reap our reward of eternal life and, those who reject "good," will reap eternal damnation.
It is very revealing how you bend the Scriptures just a bit and insert a word here and there to make if fit your preconception,
For example:
The Scripture:
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
You change "...patient continuance in well doing..." into "accept Christ by faith" and "'...do not obey the truth"... into "those who reject good.."
And Presto - you make it say just what you want it to say. Really you should be ashamed of yourself. The only people who will accept such twisting are those who also commit sin as you have admitted.
Thanks for your opinion - I prefer God's...
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
Given Paul's persistant preaching of Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, what else could he have meant?
He could have meant exactly what he said - not your version.
Rom 2:7 He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever.
Rom 2:8 But he will show how angry and furious he can be with every selfish person who rejects the truth and wants to do evil.
"Done what is good" means the opposite "wants to do evil" in the same passage.
He could have meant exactly what he said - not your version.
Rom 2:7 He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever.
Rom 2:8 But he will show how angry and furious he can be with every selfish person who rejects the truth and wants to do evil.
"Done what is good" means the opposite "wants to do evil" in the same passage.
It is about what you do - take it or leave it.
HK
I think I'll leave this discussion for now as it appears it's going nowhere and is becoming personal. To paraphrase what you said above to Ironmaw, "When cannot answer, scream "Sinner!"
I think I'll leave this discussion for now as it appears it's going nowhere and is becoming personal. To paraphrase what you said above to Ironmaw, "When cannot answer, scream "Sinner!"
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Bye...
HK
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He could have meant exactly what he said - not your version. 
Bye...
