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Old 07-24-2009, 07:37 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,443,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
But Twin, if you do believe in Eternal Torment then I ask you how you resolve the fact that Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil which is sin and still can believe that sinners will be tormented forever? Don't you see that if sinners still exist that it means that sin still exists? How would you explain that contradiction?

Paul
Paul,
Jesus has many explanations:

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Its called objective\subjective justification.....

Objective: "Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil which is sin"
Subjective: "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Those who reject Jesus, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, are condemned already.

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is notcondemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

John 5:29
"....—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Some will rise to live, others to be condemned. If your not sure why, read the verses that I posted .... again and again and again if you have too.

Jesus says: John 10:27
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
John 10:26
"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

The other voice says:
Genesis 3:4"You will not surely die,"

Not that I'm saying this about you, but simply some don't believe because they are not Jesus' sheep. UR is not the words of Jesus.
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:03 PM
 
Location: NC
14,706 posts, read 17,043,100 times
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Quote:
Don't you see that if sinners still exist that it means that sin still exists?
Amen, and the works of satan will not have been defeated. Being condemned also does not equate to eternal hell or annihilation. Many will be condemned but according to many scriptures like the one found in Eph. 1 and Romans 8, all are to be restored to God. God bless.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:55 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,922,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Amen, and the works of satan will not have been defeated. Being condemned also does not equate to eternal hell or annihilation. Many will be condemned but according to many scriptures like the one found in Eph. 1 and Romans 8, all are to be restored to God. God bless.

Annihilation is God sweeping all those sinners under the rug and saying "oh look, no sinners exist now" nah nah nahnah nah
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:42 AM
 
Location: NC
14,706 posts, read 17,043,100 times
Reputation: 1505
God bless.
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Old 07-25-2009, 01:58 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,731,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Annihilation is God sweeping all those sinners under the rug and saying "oh look, no sinners exist now" nah nah nahnah nah
Maybe it is not worth going the extra mile ... ? Its just reprobate humans after all ... Kindling for heavens heater.
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 7,004,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Paul,
Jesus has many explanations:

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Its called objective\subjective justification.....

Objective: "Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil which is sin"
Subjective: "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Those who reject Jesus, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, are condemned already.

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is notcondemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

John 5:29
"....—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Some will rise to live, others to be condemned. If your not sure why, read the verses that I posted .... again and again and again if you have too.

Jesus says: John 10:27
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
John 10:26
"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

The other voice says:
Genesis 3:4"You will not surely die,"

Not that I'm saying this about you, but simply some don't believe because they are not Jesus' sheep. UR is not the words of Jesus.
But where in all of your theology does SIN eventually become eradicated? I don't see where your resolving that. Do you not believe that ALL SIN gets eradicated eventually? If so, then how can their continue to be SINNERS in TORMENT forevermore?

See Twin, I also believe in condemnation. I also believe in death. But I also believe in Him who has the power over Judgment and Death and has the power to convert any heart.

What reward is their in loving those that love you? Likewise what power is there in only saving those that don't need saved from their sins? The real power is to save those that are entrenched in the deepest sins.

Paul
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:17 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 5,138,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sure Legoman:

Exo 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Paul
And isn't it interesting that Moses' gift if self sacrifice was NOT accepted.

Exd 32:34
"But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."

35
Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

What happened Moses? You came up to intercede of behalf of the people, and God put you back in your place. Do what you are told and not worry about those LOST souls.

Do you know what happens when a person's name is blotted out of the Book of Life?

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Gone, forever. Would preaching against God and His righteous judgement qualify this as sinning against Him? Would setting up a golden calf that is beautiful for ALL, qualify as well? Would speaking arrogant things against Him when we ALL really don't know the whole Truth qualify as well? Really, no man knows the complete Truth. This is why even in Jesus' time, there were many who didn't believe in a ressurection.

Really, there are many qualifyers. There is, but 1 Savior. There is only this one fleshly free-willed life, but there is 1 in whom we have Life. There are many sins which men committ, but there is only 1 way to Salvation.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:36 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,330,942 times
Reputation: 2375
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And isn't it interesting that Moses' gift if self sacrifice was NOT accepted.

Exd 32:34
"But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."

35
Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

What happened Moses? You came up to intercede of behalf of the people, and God put you back in your place. Do what you are told and not worry about those LOST souls.

Do you know what happens when a person's name is blotted out of the Book of Life?

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Gone, forever. Would preaching against God and His righteous judgement qualify this as sinning against Him? Would setting up a golden calf that is beautiful for ALL, qualify as well? Would speaking arrogant things against Him when we ALL really don't know the whole Truth qualify as well? Really, no man knows the complete Truth. This is why even in Jesus' time, there were many who didn't believe in a ressurection.

Really, there are many qualifyers. There is, but 1 Savior. There is only this one fleshly free-willed life, but there is 1 in whom we have Life. There are many sins which men committ, but there is only 1 way to Salvation.
To my understanding, the Book of Life is NOT speaking of salvation at all. The Book of the Life of the Lamb = HIS life, His work, the work of the Kingdom. You can either be included in that book by taking part in bringing the world into Jesus' Kingdom, or you can exclude yourself from that book and from the reward of being part of Jesus' work.

In the NT, Jesus continued to warn the Israelites about that very thing. So many of the "difficult" passages are no longer difficult when you understand that. And the Gentile believers are warned of the very same thing in Romans ... be careful, or you branches that have been grafted into the tree, who have been graciously and mercifully given the privelege of taking part in the work of the Lamb, can be cut off and you too can lose that reward.


ETA: Interestingly, Moses did NOT enter the Promised Land with the Israelites. Was his request answered after all, and he along with the people that he had been leading, were excluded from the promise but the remnant of Israel, the children of that blotted out generation, were indeed allowed to continue into it?
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:44 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,895,789 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Do you know what happens when a person's name is blotted out of the Book of Life?

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Gone, forever.
Not gone forever. Read Deut 29 & 30. Otherwise who could be saved? All have sinned against God... it says whosoever sinned, him will God blot out.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 07-25-2009 at 07:54 AM..
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 7,004,563 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And isn't it interesting that Moses' gift if self sacrifice was NOT accepted.

Exd 32:34
"But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."

35
Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

What happened Moses? You came up to intercede of behalf of the people, and God put you back in your place. Do what you are told and not worry about those LOST souls.

Do you know what happens when a person's name is blotted out of the Book of Life?

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Gone, forever. Would preaching against God and His righteous judgement qualify this as sinning against Him? Would setting up a golden calf that is beautiful for ALL, qualify as well? Would speaking arrogant things against Him when we ALL really don't know the whole Truth qualify as well? Really, no man knows the complete Truth. This is why even in Jesus' time, there were many who didn't believe in a ressurection.

Really, there are many qualifyers. There is, but 1 Savior. There is only this one fleshly free-willed life, but there is 1 in whom we have Life. There are many sins which men committ, but there is only 1 way to Salvation.
No "forever", did you read what Moses said that I posted? He says that he would rather be blotted out of the book if God wouldn't take away their sins. God replies that those that sin against him will be blotted out of the book. Moses continued to obey God afterwards which shows us that Moses understood that God would eventually take away the sins of those who had been blotted out of the book of life.

Paul
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