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Old 07-29-2009, 12:06 AM
 
18,135 posts, read 16,701,689 times
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And the beat goes on! Or, rather, the hunt goes on for a solution to the raging debate of three diametrically opposed viewpoints of how the damned end up spending eternity. In my extensive research of these topics on the web I stumbled across a blog that lays out a reasonable solution to the conundrum. How about this: a marriage of ET & annihilation with UR in attendance?

Isaiah gives us the first clue:

“And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh” (Isaiah 66.23-24

Isaiah tells us that while the carcass shall burn eternally, the consciousness apparently will be absent, since they are dead bodies, which, by definition, are absent of any thought process or awareness.

Jesus supports this view with Matt 10:28:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

Thus we have a POV that satisfies ET's (the burning is eternal); Annihilation (the consciousness is destroyed so there is no awareness of the eternal torment of the body) and UR's are happy because a large percentage of them are drawn to UR more as a reaction to the mind's inability to accept the horrors of ET than the doctrine in and of its own merits. For a detailed explanation of this concept read the blog below. It offers much more solid scriptural support for this interpretation than I can offer here.

The Lake of Fire: Second Death in the Lake of Fire
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:15 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,655 posts, read 3,512,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
And the beat goes on! Or, rather, the hunt goes on for a solution to the raging debate of three diametrically opposed viewpoints of how the damned end up spending eternity. In my extensive research of these topics on the web I stumbled across a blog that lays out a reasonable solution to the conundrum. How about this: a marriage of ET & annihilation with UR in attendance?

Isaiah gives us the first clue:

“And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh” (Isaiah 66.23-24

Isaiah tells us that while the carcass shall burn eternally, the consciousness apparently will be absent, since they are dead bodies, which, by definition, are absent of any thought process or awareness.

Jesus supports this view with Matt 10:28:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

Thus we have a POV that satisfies ET's (the burning is eternal); Annihilation (the consciousness is destroyed so there is no awareness of the eternal torment of the body) and UR's are happy because a large percentage of them are drawn to UR more as a reaction to the mind's inability to accept the horrors of ET than the doctrine in and of its own merits. For a detailed explanation of this concept read the blog below. It offers much more solid scriptural support for this interpretation than I can offer here.

The Lake of Fire: Second Death in the Lake of Fire

But what also needs to be reconciled is the word of God is powerful - dividing of the soul and the spirit
and also -> in Adam - all die i.e. flesh/soul destroyed .... Adam was created a living soul only
and -> In Christ all will be made alive .... Christ was a quickening spirit

Resurrection is about being raised to spiritual life ....... not reanimating carnal flesh with its desires and lusts
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:29 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,655 posts, read 3,512,491 times
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Thrillobyte,

What I have noticed in Revelation when the dead are judged nowhere does it say they are resurrected before they are judged (it is assumed) but they are called "the dead" The dead stand to be judged (not resurrected) and just as the 1st resurrection is those that have died in Christ and at the 1st resurrection are raised after death and live and reign with Christ during the "1000 years" The dead experience death = the second death, and are raised after death

Please consider what this verse is saing

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:16 AM
 
18,135 posts, read 16,701,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Thrillobyte,

What I have noticed in Revelation when the dead are judged nowhere does it say they are resurrected before they are judged (it is assumed) but they are called "the dead" The dead stand to be judged (not resurrected) and just as the 1st resurrection is those that have died in Christ and at the 1st resurrection are raised after death and live and reign with Christ during the "1000 years" The dead experience death = the second death, and are raised after death

Please consider what this verse is saing

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
meerkat, I cannot wrap my brain around what you are trying to convey here. It's not you, it's definitely me. My intellect is receding with age so comprehension flees. I'm not trying to be rude or evasive, I promise. I read your response several times to try to make sense of it and, while I can see what the words are, things like "the dead experience death i.e. the second death and are raised after death" goes right over my head as far as its implications. Maybe someone else here can contribute to help me understand, if nobody does maybe this topic is not worth pursuing.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,310,441 times
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a possible view:

devil, beast and false prophet = everlasting torment in the lake of fire
mortal sinners = annihilation in the lake of fire (second death)

now we could interpret, that only those who commited the sin against the Holy Spirit will be annihilated and all others will be forgiven in the world to come and it would basically be a mixture of all 3 teachings.

I have no moral problem with annihilationism, but I'm just convinced the bible teaches the reconciliation of the whole (Col. 1:20), that includes satan.

however truth is not a compromise, those who convinced of hell will continue teaching it, the same with annihilationists and universalists.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:50 AM
 
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There can be no compromise. What is truth?
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,079,188 times
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Here's your answer, imo:

The Restitution of All Things (Part 2) (http://www.tentmaker.org/restofall2.htm - broken link)
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,079,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I am sure Satan is nearby, smiling and nodding his head up and down thinking ....
"Yeeeessss, they hear me... Keep them arguing over who is right and wrong and keep them focused on their own wisdom... Yeessss, keep them unfocused on Christ and his mangy words about how simple his gospel of love is and all those lies about everlasting life and the finality of the second death..Yeeesss, come to me my children, it has taken me milleniums to get my perverted message across...Compromise? HAH, not on your lives..Come my followers let us now enter into a discussion about the Church and all the grand rules and rituals I have added to it for your entertainment.. Just remember kiddies.........no compromising"
Satan will never glorify Jesus - remember that. We must give our lives to the Saviour, but Satan won't like that we acknowledge that he has been revealed as the carnal mind!!
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: NC
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I agree that it is about what the truth is, and is not about compromise. ET and annihilationism to me does not take into account or disregards the scriptures which speak of the subjection of all thins to God, the creation being delivered, of all being reconciled to God, of all things being reunited in Christ, of all mankind worshipping and giving glory to God. God bless.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:21 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,696,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
And the beat goes on! Or, rather, the hunt goes on for a solution to the raging debate of three diametrically opposed viewpoints of how the damned end up spending eternity. In my extensive research of these topics on the web I stumbled across a blog that lays out a reasonable solution to the conundrum. How about this: a marriage of ET & annihilation with UR in attendance?

Isaiah gives us the first clue:

“And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh” (Isaiah 66.23-24

Isaiah tells us that while the carcass shall burn eternally, the consciousness apparently will be absent, since they are dead bodies, which, by definition, are absent of any thought process or awareness.

Jesus supports this view with Matt 10:28:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

Thus we have a POV that satisfies ET's (the burning is eternal); Annihilation (the consciousness is destroyed so there is no awareness of the eternal torment of the body) and UR's are happy because a large percentage of them are drawn to UR more as a reaction to the mind's inability to accept the horrors of ET than the doctrine in and of its own merits. For a detailed explanation of this concept read the blog below. It offers much more solid scriptural support for this interpretation than I can offer here.

The Lake of Fire: Second Death in the Lake of Fire
Okay, first of all Isaiah is there talking about the earth after Christ returns and subdues the nations in that verse. That is not necessarily referring to the judgment of the lake of fire which shall come at the end of the reign of Christ.

this is not referring to some little pocket dimension where people can look through it like a window and see the conscious immortal humans and demons burning for ever. It will be the place that the carcasses of the dead who where the armies of the nations and many of them that will perish in the judgments will be gathered and burned. The use of ever quench is not referring to eternity. It is referring to the fact that the fires will be kept going until all the carnage is finally consumed. It is just like the fundamental or orthodox mind to add to ancient Hebrew writing its own preconceived western 21 century notions of reality. Sure your interpretation may go back as far as a few hundred years, but that is in no way to be misconstrued as ancient, and certainly not a Hebrew understanding. This was a promise of the coming of the messiah in glory to subdue the nations and make Israel the head of the nations. This is a prophecy concerning his coming and destroying the enemies of Israel. Get the context straight before you start trying to exegete any meaning in reference to the state of being in an afterlife, or in the new heavens and the new earth, where all such things as what is described in Isaiah 66:24 will not exist.
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