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There is NOTHING evil or sinful in our mortal flesh, our mortal flesh only becomes sinful when we become in union with satan.
There is nothing inherently sinful in our flesh since Christ had our flesh yet never sinned. At the same time our flesh is given as a cause of our sin independant of Satan - i.e. there are verses about sin and flesh that at least do not mention Satan. For example, no mention of Satan here:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Yes, but that spirit did not dwell in Christ. Christ was not a friend of the world. Yet Christ was tempted by some spirit.
Correct, in that Jesus didn't exhibit the spirit but that spirit is born from out of the flesh of man which Jesus had.
Quote:
Whether Satan who tempted Christ is an allegory for weakness of Christ's flesh or whether Satan was a being who worked through the weakness of Christ's flesh... I believe that latter, but I can understand the idea of the former.
But the verse above does not apply to Christ. Christ did not let the weakness of the flesh conveive into carnal mindedness which the above verse describes.
The thing is, Paul describes carnal mindedness using those words but also describes Satan using other words. That doesn't prove they are different but leads me to think they are, until proven otherwise.
A carnal mind is the mind occupied by Satan which is a reference to a spirit of disobedience.
Again, if Jesus had a different flesh then this verse is in error:
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
How would Jesus know the weakness of man's flesh if He does't possess the same flesh?
And again:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
If Jesus didn't have the same flesh as the rest of men then He was TEMPTED in VAIN. Because Temptation is not defined as being drawn away of an external lust.
There is nothing inherently sinful in our flesh since Christ had our flesh yet never sinned. At the same time our flesh is given as a cause of our sin (something to pushes us towards sin) independant of Satan - i.e. there are verses about sin that at least do not mention Satan and only mention our flesh.
Bob the life of the flesh is in the blood
Did we not agree this was about nature?
The differences in the flesh are the differences natures.
There is nothing wrong with our mortality, but there is somthing wrong with our nature.
The reason our flesh is given as a cause to sin is because our flesh manifests our nature for the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Just as when we are abiding in Christ our flesh will manifest Christs nature.
It's not about flesh per say its about what nature is manifested in the flesh.
Correct, in that Jesus didn't exhibit the spirit but that spirit is born from out of the flesh of man which Jesus had.
I agree.
Quote:
A carnal mind is the mind occupied by Satan which is a reference to a spirit of disobedience.
Again, if Jesus had a different flesh then this verse is in error:
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
How would Jesus know the weakness of man's flesh if He does't possess the same flesh?
And again:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
If Jesus didn't have the same flesh as the rest of men then He was TEMPTED in VAIN. Because Temptation is not defined as being drawn away of an external lust.
Paul
I agree. I'm not saying Jesus had different flesh. I'm saying Jesus had a different heart. The same heart that God forms in man when He has mercy. Still a man though.
The Word was made flesh. The heart of God took on the form of man (however that happens, somewhat of a mystery) and was still a man. It must be possible, else how can God give us a new heart and we still be man? Those two types of men with two very different hearts are very different men, yet both men.
Jesus did feel all the strong desires of the flesh in every way we do. It was not easy for Him to overcome them, nor will it be easy for us even with a new heart to overcome them. We will continue to be tempted at all points.
No Paul, what makes a man earthy or not earthy is God, not the man's willings or runnings ("catering to the flesh"). The only reason you will overcome the world is because God Almighty takes away your stony heart and gives you a fleshy heart. You with a stony heart is not at all like you with a fleshy heart. Right? Yet, both are you as a man. Will the you who overcomes the world be any way diffent than the you who failed to overcome the world? Yes. One "you" had a stony heart and the other "you" has the heart of God. That is a huge difference and that difference is wrought by God and that difference is the cause of you catering to the flesh and then not catering to the flesh. Yet both "you's" there are men.
Christ's heart was not caused by Him not catering to sin. That is backwards. Christ did not cater to sin because His heart was unlike our heart. But that does not make Christ not a man, otherwise, you with a new heart would suddenly not be a man either! Do you believe that when God removes a stony heart and gives a fleshy heart that one goes from being man to not man?
Yes, catering to the flesh is proof of earthy or not earthy, but not the cause, God is the cause.
I agree, Christ had the flesh of man and weakness of that flesh. But Christ did not have the heart of man.
Bob, we agree about it being God that decides what is earthly and my statement of catering to the flesh is an expression of the stoney heart.
But do you realize that had Jesus gave into those lusts that He would be considered earthly?
The differences in the flesh are the differences natures.
There is nothing wrong with our mortality, but there is somthing wrong with our nature.
The reason our flesh is given as a cause to sin is because our flesh manifests our nature for the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Just as when we are abiding in Christ our flesh will manifest Christs nature.
It's not about flesh per say its about what nature is manifested in the flesh.
Hope that makes sense to you.
I'm not saying that anything is wrong with our flesh since God gave it to us. But the pushings of the flesh are not neutral to those two natures. The flesh pushes us away from God, not towards God.
That's why it's called a weakness, rather than a strength, or netural.
There is nothing inherently sinful in our flesh since Christ had our flesh yet never sinned. At the same time our flesh is given as a cause of our sin independant of Satan - i.e. there are verses about sin and flesh that at least do not mention Satan. For example, no mention of Satan here:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The fact remains that you cannot be TEMPTED if you don't have the flesh of man as the verses in James shows:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jesus was obviously part of EVERY man for there is not exception noted here. So without the flesh of every man, Jesus couldn't have been Tempted and the Temptation would have been in vain.
The differences in the flesh are the differences natures.
There is nothing wrong with our mortality, but there is somthing wrong with our nature.
The reason our flesh is given as a cause to sin is because our flesh manifests our nature for the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Just as when we are abiding in Christ our flesh will manifest Christs nature.
It's not about flesh per say its about what nature is manifested in the flesh.
Hope that makes sense to you.
The life of the flesh is in the blood. Did you not realize that when Jesus was crucified as to where the holes of His body were pierced. He would have completely drained of blood. To me this depicts us losing our life of the flesh. That life of the flesh was with Jesus but NOT Jesus. Jesus put that LIFE under subjection in His own body by means of the Holy Spirit (the New Life).
Bob, we agree about it being God that decides what is earthly and my statement of catering to the flesh is an expression of the stoney heart.
But do you realize that had Jesus gave into those lusts that He would be considered earthly?
Paul
Sure. But it is impossible for a good tree to bring forth corrupt fruit. Yet it is possible for a good tree to be tempted at all points.
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