If eternal torment or annihilation is true (crucify, believer, rituals)

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by abegofet

[center][size=4]covenantal language | historical facts[/size]
[size=4]political issues | futurism | fulfilled[/size][/center]
[size=4]full vs hyperpreterism and abiding faith[/size]
[size=4][/size][size=2](a statement from ward fenley of new creation ministries international)[/size]
[size=2]youtube[/size]

both timely and true. Truth is always timely, but i (tami) felt it especially appropriate in the context of the tone and topic of recent discussions, to share this statement here so that as many people as possible could read it.

full vs hyperpreterism and abiding faith

it seems that about once a year a reminder needs to be made about the difference between full and hyper preterism.

full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled. full preterism is not universalism. full preterism does not deny the need for faith in jesus christ. It merely says that the redemptive events necessary for eternal life (i.e., the cross, resurrection) were accomplished. The parousia comes through *the* faith of jesus christ. That is, it is called *the* faith because it is given by god. Therefore it is called "the righteousness of the faith" in reference to abraham. And all who believe believe because they were given faith and considered a part of him to whom the promise was made, i.e. "to his seed, which is christ." full preterism affirms the gates of the city are always open (isaiah 60; rev 21) for those who were promised everlasting life before the age began. God will give them faith and will give them his parousia or presence, through whose presence they are immediately placed in the holiest and made the righteousness of christ.


hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after ad 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. Salvific benefit) extends beyond ad 70. they (hyperpreterists) may believe that those particular events happened, but because they do not believe they apply past ad 70, they, by sheer virtue of their own confession, do not believe in the need for forgiveness of sin. After all, if you don't believe christ died for you since you were born after ad 70, then you do not believe the gospel as it is clearly portrayed in the scriptures:

1 corinthians 15:1-4 and, brothers, i declare to you the gospel which i preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; (2) by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the word which i preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (3) for i delivered to you first of all that which i also received, that christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, (4) and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures;

notice that mandatory within the gospel elements is to believe "that christ died for *our* sins." if one believes that christ only died for those pre-ad 70, then they do not believe christ died for their sins or the sins of anyone else post ad 70. Again, hyperpreterism is not the gospel. Belief in the gospel is to believe that christ's work was for you.

please mark the distinctions, as there is always going to be someone or some idea purporting to affirm errant definitions of full preterism and hyperpreterism.

again, neither full preterism or hyperpreterism is universalism. First of all, a hyperpreterist could not be a universalist because, according to the hyperpreterists, no one after ad 70 has eternal life. This view clearly denies universalism. After all, universalism says that all men everywhere throughout all time have or will have eternal life through any path they take.

and please make the distinction between universalism and universal redemption. Universalism teaches that all roads lead to eternal life. universal redemption teaches that christ effectually redeemed all men unrestrictively and that is why all men have or will have eternal life.

biblical redemption teaches that christ's death effectually brought about redemption for all he intended to redeem. And the gospel is that those whom christ intended to redeem either do believe or one day will believe. To go beyond this affirmation is to step into the mind and knowledge of god. We simply assume that all who confess jesus as lord, his resurrection, and salvation solely by grace are his. We are to make no judgments about who is or who is not elect or who is predestined. Paul simply declares that we as believers are a part of the church, which was predestined to eternal life. If you have true faith given by christ, that faith will continue, for "we are not of those who draw back unto perdition, but we are of those who believe unto the saving of the soul." cf. "...unless you have believed *in vain*." there are some who have believed in vain:

1 john 2:19 they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

though i have heard some say that one's affirmation of fulfilled eschatology either shows one's damnation or salvation, i do not believe this to be so. All of us are at different places in our theological journey, learning as god's gracious providence commands. We learn no faster or slower than he dictates. We cannot judge one's salvation simply because they are supposedly learning at a slower pace. After all, we preterists above all know that god has been ever so long-suffering toward us, and will always be continually long-suffering toward us as he gradually and eternally removes the baggage of humanism from our minds. The throwing off of baggage is an eternal process, but it is a process that is god-ordained for the eternal acknowledgement by god's children that his mercies indeed endure forever and that his compassions fail not. Physical death does not stop the process of learning; for how could we possibly exhaust the knowledge of the unsearchable riches, holiness, and power of the eternal god? If we were ever able to come to a complete knowledge of god, then would we not be god? Knowing how long-suffering the eternal god will be with our eternally finite knowledge should cause humility and more long-suffering toward others who might not be where we *think* they should be, especially in light of the fact that if they don't immediately believe what we think they should believe, then that is god's absolute sovereignty over their hearts. He knows what is best for them at any given time in the scheme of their eternal pursuit of truth.

thanks for reading.

ward

pointers to remember

• full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled.
• hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after ad 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. Salvific benefit) extends beyond ad 70.
• universalism says that all men everywhere throughout all time have or will have eternal life through any path they take.

[center]make the distinction between universalism and universal redemption.[/center]

• universalism teaches that all roads lead to eternal life.
• universal redemption teaches that christ effectually redeemed all men unrestrictively and that is why all men have or will have eternal life.

___________________________________________
none of this sounds remotely close to the core teachings of jesus christ!

...and amen!

[legoman]

Originally Posted by abegofet

relativism and universalism

Another enlightening read

This is an interesting article, but I don't think it has anything to do with what is being talked about in this thread. I didn't see any mention of the salvation of all or eternal torment in that article.

[mikeyd1975]

Originally Posted by abegofet

So with that thinking, what was the whole point of Christ sending out his apostiles to the world to become fishers of men?
Why did paul suffer so to bring the Gospel unto the churches?
what was his point after all?
If we are to believe in universalism, then Christ really had no reason for sending his apostles unto the world. Since Christ had already done all of the fishing necessary through his perfect sacrafice on the cross, why would he send those who truly believed in him on missionary trips as fishers of men?

The revelation of John speaks about Christ separating the sheep from the goats... the goats being cast into eternal darkness

please explain this from your universal point of view

Christ sent the apostles into the world to make disciples not to save souls. Read the great commission again. Paul suffered to bring the GOOD NEWS to them. Why would anyone who has truth be content for his human brothers to remain enslaved to a lie? Further, Paul sought to bring glory to Christ. If men know that Christ has saved them they worship him and give him glory. BTW the goats are cast into age lasting darkness.

The GOOD NEWS of John says he wrote these things that we may KNOW that we HAVE eternal life. It doesnt say he wrote these things so that we might know how to GET eternal life. John's 'you' is addressing any reader any time any place who picks up his gospel. Why should one believe if all will be saved? For the simple reason that it is true.

[lifesigns64]

Originally Posted by legoman

Lets try another view.

1. Is God "lying" or "hallucinating" when He says He desires and wills all men to be saved?
2. Is God "lying" or "hallucinating" when He says He will do all that he desires and wills?
3. Is God "lying" or "hallucinating" when He says everyone will confess Jesus is Lord and swear allegiance to Him?
4. Is God "lying" or "hallucinating" when He says He will bring all things under christ?

Seems like your view makes God out to be a liar or maybe you don't think God's word is completely true.

. . . . No, but line up the fence posts. I can sit here and type many many more verses, many more verses that took about that many will not enter God's kingdom . . . . . verses need to be read in completion within the passages . . . . . . . if I give you passages/paragraphs of scriptures with verses that there will be nothing wicked in heaven . .. will you call Our God a Liar??????

Will you??????? Do you think someone ungodly, when they see the Lord and have to confess that yes, Jesus is real, he is Lord . . . do you think they will be overjoyed . . . or think, they were wrong . . Read the measurements of heaven in the bible, and how many cubits it is . . . than think of the millions dead and alive . . . . not all are entering it . . . . we were given the measurements, think about that . . . . .

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by mikeyd1975

Christ sent the apostles into the world to make disciples not to save souls. Read the great commission again. Paul suffered to bring the GOOD NEWS to them. Why would anyone who has truth be content for his human brothers to remain enslaved to a lie? Further, Paul sought to bring glory to Christ. If men know that Christ has saved them they worship him and give him glory. BTW the goats are cast into age lasting darkness.

The GOOD NEWS of John says he wrote these things that we may KNOW that we HAVE eternal life. It doesnt say he wrote these things so that we might know how to GET eternal life. John's 'you' is addressing any reader any time any place who picks up his gospel. Why should one believe if all will be saved? For the simple reason that it is true.

What most don't seem to understand about the "life" that Jesus gave us is that we have it now. Those who are called to believe have God walking with them through life, while unbelievers don't. We all go through the fire of trials, temptations and judgments but God is with us and we cannot be hurt by it when He is. This is the meaning of the "second death cannot hurt us". When unbelievers go through the fires of life...they have no one to trust in and depend on to see them through it, which makes life so much harder to endure. So that is why they were told to make disicples...or christ followers.

Life just isn't life without God.

[lifesigns64]

Originally Posted by mikeyd1975

Christ sent the apostles into the world to make disciples not to save souls. Read the great commission again. Paul suffered to bring the GOOD NEWS to them. Why would anyone who has truth be content for his human brothers to remain enslaved to a lie? Further, Paul sought to bring glory to Christ. If men know that Christ has saved them they worship him and give him glory. BTW the goats are cast into age lasting darkness.

The GOOD NEWS of John says he wrote these things that we may KNOW that we HAVE eternal life. It doesnt say he wrote these things so that we might know how to GET eternal life. John's 'you' is addressing any reader any time any place who picks up his gospel. Why should one believe if all will be saved? For the simple reason that it is true.

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by lifesigns64

. . . . No, but line up the fence posts. I can sit here and type many many more verses, many more verses that took about that many will not enter God's kingdom . . . . . verses need to be read in completion within the passages . . . . . . . if I give you passages/paragraphs of scriptures with verses that there will be nothing wicked in heaven . .. will you call Our God a Liar??????

Will you??????? Do you think someone ungodly, when they see the Lord and have to confess that yes, Jesus is real, he is Lord . . . do you think they will be overjoyed . . . or think, they were wrong . . Read the measurements of heaven in the bible, and how many cubits it is . . . than think of the millions dead and alive . . . . not all are entering it . . . . we were given the measurements, think about that . . . . .

The Kingdom of God is within you....it is not a physical earthly place. Jesus said this himself.

[lifesigns64]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

The Kingdom of God is within you....it is not a physical earthly place. Jesus said this himself.

The holy spirit is living in every believer, and by that we hold the Kingdom of God . . .he went to prepare a place for us, no eye can see, no brain can imagine the beauty and wonder of it . . . .

He is going to destroy this earth . . . .he is brining his paradaise down to a specific location, with specific measurement, and with a specific invitation on how to get to this party . . . . . . all are invitied, many choose not to come.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by lifesigns64

. . . . No, but line up the fence posts. I can sit here and type many many more verses, many more verses that took about that many will not enter God's kingdom . . . . . verses need to be read in completion within the passages . . . . . . . if I give you passages/paragraphs of scriptures with verses that there will be nothing wicked in heaven . .. will you call Our God a Liar??????

Will you??????? Do you think someone ungodly, when they see the Lord and have to confess that yes, Jesus is real, he is Lord . . . do you think they will be overjoyed . . . or think, they were wrong . . Read the measurements of heaven in the bible, and how many cubits it is . . . than think of the millions dead and alive . . . . not all are entering it . . . . we were given the measurements, think about that . . . . .

Hi lifesigns,

Who is calling God a liar? Be careful with your accusations. Who is saying God will not save all? (It's you). Yet the bible does say God will have all men to be saved.

Why do you suggest I think there would be anything wicked in heaven?!? I have never made that claim. Wickedness will be destroyed.

There is no need to line up the fence posts. Do you think scripture is a democracy?

"Oh look 37 verses that say eternal hell, but only 20 verses that say God saves all, I guess eternal hell is true. No wait wait I found another 20 verses that imply God saves all, UR must be true! No wait wait you are misunderstanding these verses and blah blah blah."

This is not how it works. ALL of scripture is true. Scripture does not contradict scripture.

In truth, eternal torment can be defeated with one verse. God is LOVE. Because the moment you add eternal torment into the picture, you now have to say God is LOVE, except....
- except if you don't love Him
- except if you sin
- except if you don't choose Christ in this life
etc. ...

No no no it doesn't say that. It says God is love. Love will not allow someone to be tortured forever. Love will not sustain someone alive in fire forever.

It really is just that simple.

Yes some will not enter the Kingdom. But what is the Kingdom? What does "not entering the Kingdom" mean? Study it.

Yes Christ will say to some "Depart from me I never knew you". But does that mean He will never know them? Does that mean eternal hell, or is that just your bias assuming that?

Yes many will go into the lake of fire. But what is the lake of fire? What is its purpose? Study it.

Study the mistranslations of aion and "hell". Study it. Read articles both pro and con. Really study it for yourself. This is just too important not to know the truth.

There is a purpose for those in the Kingdom, and there is a purpose for those not in the Kingdom. There is a purpose for all of these events that people claim is "eternal hell", and it is a good purpose.

Do you believe God is Love and Love covers all wrongs?

Or do you only believe Love covers all wrongs except .... <blank>

[abegofet]

<< Matthew 25 >>
New International Version The Parable of the Ten Virgins
1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise.</SPAN> 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.</SPAN> 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.</SPAN> 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.</SPAN>
6“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’</SPAN>
7“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.</SPAN> 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’</SPAN>
9“‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’</SPAN>
10“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.</SPAN>
11“Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’</SPAN>
12“But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’</SPAN>
13“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.</SPAN>
The Parable of the Talents
14“Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them.</SPAN> 15To one he gave five talentsa of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.</SPAN> 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more.</SPAN> 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more.</SPAN> 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.</SPAN>
19“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.</SPAN> 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’</SPAN>
21“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’</SPAN>
22“The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’</SPAN>
23“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’</SPAN>
24“Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.</SPAN> 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’</SPAN>
26“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?</SPAN> 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.</SPAN>
28“‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.</SPAN> 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.</SPAN> 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’</SPAN>
The Sheep and the Goats
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.</SPAN> 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</SPAN> 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</SPAN>
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</SPAN> 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</SPAN> 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</SPAN>
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</SPAN> 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</SPAN> 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</SPAN>
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’</SPAN>
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</SPAN> 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</SPAN> 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</SPAN>
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</SPAN>
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</SPAN>
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”</SPAN> Footnotes:
a 15 A talent was worth more than a thousand dollars.
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Please attempt to explain from a universalists point of view, the obove three references