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Hmm....55 entries in this thread and no one came up with one scripture to the effect, "I will chastise you in the fires and then release you."
Zeph 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgmentshall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them.
Yeah, as I mentioned in meerkat's thread, in response to kingdom's response to me (but will repeat it for those who don't see the other one) : as there was no concept of ET in the OT times, any references from OT scripture to UR's validity must be judged invalid.
Yeah, as I mentioned in meerkat's thread, in response to kingdom's response to me (but will repeat it for those who don't see the other one) : as there was no concept of ET in the OT times, any references from OT scripture to UR's validity must be judged invalid.
But that's silly. There was a concept of judgment of the whole earth in fire because of sin. There were concepts about the attributes of God as to how God will or will not judge man for his sins in His wrath. God is unchanging. A verse that says that the LORD will not cast off forever the children of men for their sin is perfectly valid for answering the question "will God cast off men into some bad place forever for their sins". Suppose we were debating whether God can lie. Would an OT verse that says "God can not lie" fail to prove the point?
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-02-2009 at 10:52 PM..
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Let's get real here. You can not receive many or few stripes in everlasting hell. It's not possible and it's total nonsense. Notice it says "I am come to send fire on the earth". Compare to the Zephenia passage I posted which says "the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy".
Yeah, as I mentioned in meerkat's thread, in response to kingdom's response to me (but will repeat it for those who don't see the other one) : as there was no concept of ET in the OT times, any references from OT scripture to UR's validity must be judged invalid.
Hmm,
I find that very telling actually -- that you state that eternal torment was only introduced in the NT - and Paul says in the NT that wolves will enter in and bring heresy etc, 2000 years ago.
God does not change .......
He promised death for sin ...... not eternal torment ......
And just as Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrection is being raised from the dead .......
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Let's get real here. You can not receive many or few stripes in everlasting hell. It's not possible and it's total nonsense. Notice it says "I am come to send fire on the earth". Compare to the Zephenia passage I posted which says "the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy".
You make good points, kingdom. I can't refute them as I'm not a biblical scholar. And as I am all alone out here with no one to give me any support, I'm calling it quits. The UR'ers won the case, far as I'm concerned. Good debate, guys. You've proved your POV.
Hmm....55 entries in this thread and no one came up with one scripture to the effect, "I will chastise you in the fires and then release you."
IMO, this one is fairly strong for what you are asking:
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is talking about trying man's work by fire. The works are burned up but the man is saved so as by fire. The verse says "every man". Is this really talking about all men? It is debatable I think. Verse 11 says "No one can lay any foundation other than Jesus Christ". Does that apply for everyone, including non-believers? Also verse 9 says "you are God's building". I believe that is referring to God's temple (Know Ye not that ye are God's temple? - we know everyone is God's temple, but some sit in it themselves instead of letting God sit there - they are unbelievers) Anyway, 1 Cor 3 shows that people are tried by fire, the works burnt up, and then saved.
Note the language: Every man... every man's work... tried by fire. Every man ... saved by fire.
Now compare with the lake of fire. Is God a respector of persons and treats those in the lake of fire differently?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
Note: Judgment is of works, but salvation is not based on works! It is by the grace of God.
Again we see similar language: Every man ... every man's work ... every man judged according to His work ... in fire.
This seems to be a spiritual match -> is the Lake of Fire the same fire that is talked about in 1 Cor 3:12-15? What is the fire? It is most likely God's consuming fire. What does it do? Burns up the wood & straw, but purifies the gold and silver, and ultimately saves.
Like I said, remember God is not a respecter of persons. Ultimately everyone must go through the fire for the same purpose.
You make good points, kingdom. I can't refute them as I'm not a biblical scholar. And as I am all alone out here with no one to give me any support, I'm calling it quits. The UR'ers won the case, far as I'm concerned. Good debate, guys. You've proved your POV.
Don't feel that "it's not a matter of being all alone out here", you're not.
All that the UR's prove is that anyone can be convinced of their interpetations.....no matter how incorrect it is.
Don't feel that "it's not a matter of being all alone out here", you're not.
All that the UR's prove is that anyone can be convinced of their interpetations.....no matter how incorrect it is.
John 3:36 is still true....no UR
That because UR is misrepresented as being saved and not having to believe which is not true.
Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Every believer was once in a state of "believeth not" and the wrath of God is proven to be a tool to bring us to believe, since every believer was once a non believer so that wrath did not remain on them for all eternity.
To come to any other conclusion you'd have to argue that every believer was always a believer from the very beginning.
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