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Despite the title of this thread, June is absolutely sincere in what she is about to ask in this OP.
This forum has been engaged in an ongoing argumentative debate as regards Universalism vs. Non-Universalist beliefs for a long time now. To say that it becomes ugly at times would be a ridiculous understatement.
Can you give some examples of ugliness coming from Universalists on this board? I think the ugliness has come more from the ET camp. But I don't want to get into "he said she said" debate.
As far as June is concerned, I just hope she comes to believe Christ died for her sins, was entombed and rose again the third day. I'd be so happy if that is all the futher she got though I'd try to help her see that it is better to believe the rest of the story that God will save all.
YOu see, the reason she is probably an atheist is due to the ETers shoving a demoralizing concept of God down her throat on the radio and T.V.
If she does come to believe like the E.T.'s if she has any children I would probably pray for those kids because alot of mothers who believe Eternal Torment murder their children. Just read the news if you don't believe me.
Can you give some examples of ugliness coming from Universalists on this board? I think the ugliness has come more from the ET camp. But I don't want to get into "he said she said" debate.
As far as June is concerned, I just hope she comes to believe Christ died for her sins, was entombed and rose again the third day. I'd be so happy if that is all the futher she got though I'd try to help her see that it is better to believe the rest of the story that God will save all.
YOu see, the reason she is probably an atheist is due to the ETers shoving a demoralizing concept of God down her throat on the radio and T.V.
If she does come to believe like the E.T.'s if she has any children I would probably pray for those kids because alot of mothers who believe Eternal Torment murder their children. Just read the news if you don't believe me.
Eusebius
My friend Shana will tell you I'm no universalist.(But I do wish it were True)
Nevertheless, I think it's a disservice to our atheist friends to create an either or choice. Either your going to have eternal bliss, or your going to have eternal misery unless you do xyz.
I don't believe God predestined ANYONE for eternal misery.
I believe Jesus wept, because He saw those that rejected His love.
Some appear to believe it's near impsiible to enter heaven.
Others appear to believe it's impossible to go to hell.
Given my faith in the character of God, as expressed by Jesus Christ, I believe it's alot harder to get into hell than many appear to believe.
What about infants, the mentally retarded, the primitive, or the abused, who can't form a belief in Christ's offer of salvation. Are they damned. I don't believe so.
Or, what about the professed "christians" full of pride, deceit and hatred. Are they destined for eternal bliss. I don't think it's etched in stone.
Personally, I believe the gates of hell are locked on the inside. That Christ will continue to pursue us, and desires that NO ONE be lost.
But with all due respect to my Universalist friends, there just may be some who truely prefer eternal seperation. And that will be their own hell.
But as I said, it will sure be "heavenly" if I'm mistaken.
June, I would say someone is drawing you near to HIM. You should just pray for God to guide you to Jesus, then just let the Holy Spirit be your guidance. Once you let down the wall you have built, you will be amazed at the changes in your life, you won't be able to deny that those changes are coming from JESUS.
You won't see fire works or glitter coming from the sky, for the most part you will feel more conflict, more uneasiness, you will have to remember satan does not want you to accept Jesus, so he is fighting for your soul also.
Don't let satan win. I will be praying for God to show you HIS way!!
I would find it odd that any believer in ET would say it doesn`t matter which route you took to your belief. The reason being is because the whole concept of ET is an either or....either you believe in ET or you believe in another Jesus and you are not a real christian and destined for eternal torture. We have seen them say that in post after post. That is the issue. How many times have we read that we believe a false gospel or believe in a DIFFERENT JESUS and therefore we are not really going to heaven? So for them to say now that it wouldn`t matter to them,seems hypocritical to me. Of course it would matter to them. Because if you don`t believe in ET then you don`t have the truth and are not a real chrisitian and once you die,too bad. At the core of this ideology is that man is in control...ego. So once man dies, it is too late.
On the other hand, with christian universalist, God is in control. So when you die, it is not too late because God is working out his plan through the ages, not one. The very core of christian universalism is that God is in control. It is his creation and he planned everything from the beginning. He is responsible for the things he has made. We are accountable to God for our actions but he made us and therefore is responsible for us. Sort of like a parent responsible for a child. The child is held accountable for his actions but ultamently the parent is responsible for the child. I believe the earthly family unit is a microcosm of the heavenly family.
So, I would find it hypocritical for an ET`er to say it doesn`t matter and for a christian universalist to say it does matter. That is why most of the negative personal post come from ET`ers . Because they believe it is their way or no way..you are responsible. Chrisitian Universalist believe it is God`s way...he is responsible.
Hi spm62, I agree that for some believers in ET, this is the case that if you don't believe in ET you are a liar, a deceiver, not a real Christian, ect. On the other hand, some have said to me because we may be seeing differently on this subject, it is not their place to judge. So I can't say that all believe this, from my experience. God bless.
Hi spm62, I agree that for some believers in ET, this is the case that if you don't believe in ET you are a liar, a deceiver, not a real Christian, ect. On the other hand, some have said to me because we may be seeing differently on this subject, it is not their place to judge. So I can't say that all believe this, from my experience. God bless.
Hi shana, it good that you have experience with an Et`er that believes you will still go to heaven. But at the very core of that belief is the idea that God will punish people forever and if you believe anything else than you don`t believe the bible and you are giving people a free ride. Which totally contradicts scripture and God`s justice. Because they will say that God`s love demands justice. Since man is the one responsible for that decision and not God, not everyone can or will be saved because it is not up to God. So to believe God WILL save everyone puts the onus back on God and we know God cannot and will not fail. So if an ET`er says you can be a christian universalist and still go to heaven, then what he must mean is that your belief may be right and he may be wrong...not that your belief can be wrong and you can still go to heaven. Do you see what I mean?
A true believer in Et has to be believe in an either or. You either believe in their idea of God`s justice and the true gospel or you don`t, and if you don`t believe in the true gospel than you can`t get to heaven because there is no other way. The whole thing centers around MAN`S DECISION..not God`s. If they admit that you can go to heaven then they are admitting that it is not man`s decision and that is what is at the very core of their belief.
Personally, spm62, I believe that they (the ones that may have shared with me) are not sure of what they believe on the subject. I think that they may be trying to see it from our view, perspective, but are unable to reconcile it with what they see in the scriptures. I have heard some share this. Yes, I agree that most of it seems to be based on man's decision. It has to be man's decision. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-02-2009 at 10:55 AM..
I would find it odd that any believer in ET would say it doesn`t matter which route you took to your belief. The reason being is because the whole concept of ET is an either or....either you believe in ET or you believe in another Jesus and you are not a real christian and destined for eternal torture. We have seen them say that in post after post. That is the issue.
Bingo!
"That is the issue." --But is it, really? June understands that it may be, or is, for all of you, but her querie goes more to the heart of what (hopefully) everyone would state is truly important.
-Along with the fact that it is unfathomable to this atheist that given the enormous difficulty entailed in abandoning a nonbelieving stance, that one would even remotely do so based upon, or thinking about what may or may not happen after their death.
We live now.
Even June has read the Sermon on the Mount. And thinks about who was being addressed in it.
Take gentle care.
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