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Old 08-05-2009, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
You're taking something out of it's context but I respect your pursuit of clarity here. Interesting view.... The verses are referring to exact and specific things are they not? Darkness, sores, etc...It is not stated in these verses you've supplied about the eternity of hell's existence. To look at scripture about hell one must look scripture about hell.
Thankyou for the appreciation of the clarity

I don't view it as out of context per se. Yes the context is the 7 bowl judgments/plagues. But note the wording: with these 7 plagues, God's wrath is completely expressed and finished.

Its not only saying the 7 judgements are finished, but that all of God's wrath is completely finished.


Are you saying there is some other wrath that will carry on here? Because I believe Rev 15:1 is the final word on God's wrath. Its all done.

Now if you want to make the case that eternal hell carries on, but God is not angry about it anymore, that is fine. In that case, then yes we should look at the verses on "hell". There are many threads on here already that cover that aspect. Suffice it to say I believe the word "hell" is severely mistranslated and the "lake of fire" is severely misunderstood.

Peace...

 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:47 PM
 
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This might offer a satisfying alternative to both views, which I find extreme.

Hell, Place of Torment - Matthew 25:46

So let's bury the hatchet, kiddies. Just don't turn around or one of us might bury it in a place other than the ground.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This might offer a satisfying alternative to both views, which I find extreme.

Hell, Place of Torment - Matthew 25:46

So let's bury the hatchet, kiddies. Just don't turn around or one of us might bury it in a place other than the ground.
Problem with that theory is that the punishment is a "curtailing". That means eventually the "curtailing" must produce it's result which would be to have curtailed something. Therefore, the punishment must reach a specific point in time and when it reaches that point the result or outcome can no longer be further curtailing (punishment).

Paul
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:52 PM
 
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If this wrath precedes "hell" then how does it continue "for ever and ever" ?
  • Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [literally to the ages of ages]:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
  • Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
If the wrath of God above continues "for ever and ever" instead of "to the ages of the ages" then how are their seven last plagues which complete the wrath of God?
  • Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
  • Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Who shall not fear the LORD and glorify His name since all nations will come and worship God because His of His judgments?
  • .Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
What happens when God's judgments are made manifest?
  • Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Notice what it says
a) Show favor --> They will not learn righteousness, they will deal unjustly, they will not truly see God
b) Judge the earth --> They will learn righteousness
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This might offer a satisfying alternative to both views, which I find extreme.

Hell, Place of Torment - Matthew 25:46

So let's bury the hatchet, kiddies. Just don't turn around or one of us might bury it in a place other than the ground.
I think it's possible for us to disagree in a spirit of love without any hatchets flying.

The above link has death reigning forever over most of mankind, rather than death being swallowed up in life and the last enemy death being destroyed.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Presby, I didn't mean to imply that God's wrath is finished right now. But it will finish in the future.

Yes they will be filled up to the maximum... and then no more. God's wrath will end one day when there are no more wicked people.
If you accept that they will be filled up to the maximum in the KJV then your first sentence does not apply as this verse has nothing to do with God's wrath finishing, completing or completed.

Yes indeed God's wrath will end one day when there are no more wicked people because He will burn them all up. There will be no reconciliation.
[SIZE=2]
Psalm 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
[/SIZE]
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:10 PM
 
Location: NC
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  • Quote:
  • Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Amen. God bless.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:12 PM
 
Location: NC
14,706 posts, read 17,043,100 times
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I believe that wicked men shall perish and shall be no more and I also believe that there will be a new creation which will include all men. Just as the old man must die in believers we are being transformed into a new creation. There will be no enemies when God turns all into His friends. Death leads to restoration. God bless.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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Here's a novel thought (maybe not so novel):

All three views are absolutely correct. Remember, here on earth we can only debate in black & white absolutes because the one-dimensional sphere we inhabit is severely limited. In eternity, dimensions and destinies are limitless; that means all three doctrines (and more) can exist without violating scripture. Why? Because scripture was given for mortal man in a fallen physical world and is not and could never be a perfect expression of the limitless options available to God that can all co-exist on a spiritual, cosmic, eternal level. Am I way out in left field? Well, it WAS a theory, after all.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 08-05-2009 at 01:24 PM..
 
Old 08-05-2009, 01:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
Yes indeed God's wrath will end one day when there are no more wicked people because He will burn them all up. There will be no reconciliation.
[SIZE=2]
Psalm 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
[/SIZE]
Yes, I am leaning in this direction more and more, as there are so many verses where God Himself says He will destroy the wicked. Actually, I've been leaning in so many directions lately I've knocked down every wall within ten feet of me.
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