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Pneuma as I shared, "From Him, to Him, through Him are all things" is clear to me that all is out of Him. John 1:3 presents this also. Sin is not of God's nature because God never fails. He is not able to sin because He never misses the mark but He can use this experience to teach us lessons. For example, we would never know Him as a Savior without the experience of sin and would not realize the nature of the love of God for us. How would we know how much he loves us, that the magnitude of His love extends even to sinners, His enemies, without the experience of sin. I believe that all things return to Him but I don't believe that this means that they are in operation forever. The scriptures teach that the power of sin and death is to be destroyed, made of no effect. The author who writes the book always has the capacity to write another book with the same elements. God bless.
Brothers and sisters as I have said about pasts discussion on this topic both side have good arguments for what we put forth, I don’t believe I have all the answer and I don’t believe those who see it differently than me have all the answer either.
I think everyone would agree with that.
I also believe both side hold onto a truth, but both sides are MISSING something because we all agree scripture must mesh.
Moreover, I believe there is a link that will bind what both sides see together.
However, herein is the problem of what is happening on all these threads, both side are so consumed in defending what we each believe we cannot see the link that will mesh all scripture together.
Instead of reasoning the scripture together as we are told to do, we debate and defend what we believe instead.
Therefore, my suggestion is for both sides to lay aside our defences of what we see and look to find the link that will mesh the scriptures together.
In that light Iron said
Quote:
Here we are divided. I believe scripture teaches plainly that we are born into sin. I know there is no particular verse that says as much but by indication, because of adams sins death entered the world and cursed the earth as well as all those born of Adam, as well as all the rest of creation in general. Adam was not created in sin but when he sinned he became bound to the law of sin and death in the flesh. Thats is why Christ came and took on the sin of the world that we might be saved from the clutches of death and have immortality and incorruption.
When I said Adam was NOT born in sin, I was referring to Him being born with sin within him. I to believe Adam was born in sin, for sin was in the world before the commandment but was not imputed unto man until Adam ate from the tree. Therefore, we are not really so divided, as you believe us to be.
So brother where is the link that we are missing here that will mesh the scriptures together?
I see a possible link in that scripture speaks of TWO types of SIN.
The sin UNTO DEATH and the sin NOT unto DEATH.
Therefore, looking for the link from this perspective, how do you guys see these scriptures?
Please remember we are looking for the link that will mesh all scripture together, not to defend our own beleif’s.
I hope some will take part in this study together with me.
God bless
Here are the scriptures.
1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Pneuma as I shared, "From Him, to Him, through Him are all things" is clear to me that all is out of Him. John 1:3 presents this also. Sin is not of God's nature because God never fails. He is not able to sin because He never misses the mark but He can use this experience to teach us lessons. For example, we would never know Him as a Savior without the experience of sin and would not realize the nature of the love of God for us. How would we know how much he loves us, that the magnitude of His love extends even to sinners, His enemies, without the experience of sin. I believe that all things return to Him but I don't believe that this means that they are in operation forever. The scriptures teach that the power of sin and death is to be destroyed, made of no effect. The author who writes the book always has the capacity to write another book with the same elements. God bless.
Shana when we look at "all things" in and out of God should we not also be considering His nature we we think of "all things"?
Example say
Matthew 19:26
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
All things are possible with God.
Are we than to take that to mean that God can sin, or that God is evil?
A brother on another board had this to say about that scripture
Quote:
On God being unlimited. If God is unlimited, then at some point God could be evil, we have no true assurance that he would not become evil because after all, it is possible.
It is actually the "limits" that we perceive as weakness that is the true strength of assurance
Although this brother does not agreewith me on everything he does agree with me that when we are looking at God His nature must be considered. And I beleive he makes a very good point with his statement.
What is our assurance that God will not actually torment people for all eternity? Is not our greatest defence because that is not according to His nature of Love?
But if all things are possible with God and we don't take His nature into account what assurance do any have that God will not in fact torment people for all eternity? After all the scripture does proclaim " with God all things are possible"
Brothers and sisters as I have said about pasts discussion on this topic both side have good arguments for what we put forth, I don’t believe I have all the answer and I don’t believe those who see it differently than me have all the answer either.
I think everyone would agree with that.
I also believe both side hold onto a truth, but both sides are MISSING something because we all agree scripture must mesh.
Moreover, I believe there is a link that will bind what both sides see together.
However, herein is the problem of what is happening on all these threads, both side are so consumed in defending what we each believe we cannot see the link that will mesh all scripture together.
Instead of reasoning the scripture together as we are told to do, we debate and defend what we believe instead.
Therefore, my suggestion is for both sides to lay aside our defences of what we see and look to find the link that will mesh the scriptures together.
In that light Iron said
When I said Adam was NOT born in sin, I was referring to Him being born with sin within him. I to believe Adam was born in sin, for sin was in the world before the commandment but was not imputed unto man until Adam ate from the tree. Therefore, we are not really so divided, as you believe us to be.
So brother where is the link that we are missing here that will mesh the scriptures together?
I see a possible link in that scripture speaks of TWO types of SIN.
The sin UNTO DEATH and the sin NOT unto DEATH.
Therefore, looking for the link from this perspective, how do you guys see these scriptures?
Please remember we are looking for the link that will mesh all scripture together, not to defend our own beleif’s.
I hope some will take part in this study together with me.
God bless
Here are the scriptures.
1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Adam was not born in sin, however, the potential to sin was there before God bestowed the gift of Divine Love. So when Adam and Eve chose to not receive the gift, we fell into sin.
Sin can now be eliminated with the coming of Jesus and His receiving that gift fully before His death. He is the connetion that was severed.
Adam was not born in sin, however, the potential to sin was there before God bestowed the gift of Divine Love. So when Adam and Eve chose to not receive the gift, we fell into sin.
Sin can now be eliminated with the coming of Jesus and His receiving that gift fully before His death. He is the connetion that was severed.
I agree, however by Adam being born in sin I am NOT referring to that which was IN Adam, I am referring to Adam being created in a sin filled world, for until the law sin was in the world, but was NOT imputed unto man until the breaking of the law.
Although this brother does not agreewith me on everything he does agree with me that when we are looking at God His nature must be considered. And I beleive he makes a very good point with his statement.
What is our assurance that God will not actually torment people for all eternity? Is not our greatest defence because that is not according to His nature of Love?
But if all things are possible with God and we don't take His nature into account what assurance do any have that God will not in fact torment people for all eternity? After all the scripture does proclaim " with God all things are possible"
Realizing that all is out of God, including evil, does not go against His nature, Pneuma. Evil is a tool that He uses, and is not a part of His nature because we understand that God is good, that God is love. Jesus revealed the truth of God to us, but we also understand that all things came into being through Him. The omniscience of God tells me that He is the source of all things because nothing would have come into being without Him. He knew what would take place when He brought it into existence.
John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God; 3all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. (YLT)
Pnuema, can you see that we have come to know Him as Savior only through the experience of sin and we see the magnitude and nature of His love for us through this experience. We know how much He loves us because He died for us, His enemies. We know this because of the whole experience of being sinners. We know what forgiveness is, how to have forgiveness for others, how to have agape love for others, how to have empathy, compassion. We learn how to depend on Him and we are humbled because we know that all is dependent on Him. We learn to persevere, to have faith, to call on Him, to learn to trust Him. We know this through the experience of being lost and in need of a Savior.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-11-2009 at 02:12 PM..
I agree, however by Adam being born in sin I am NOT referring to that which was IN Adam, I am referring to Adam being created in a sin filled world, for until the law sin was in the world, but was NOT imputed unto man until the breaking of the law.
Then yes, Adam would have been born in a sin filled world because the Lucifer rebellion happened a few thousand years before Adam and Eve came to earth. They were sent here to correct what he had done and they failed. When Jesus came, He corrected that which lucifer had done. Now it is up to us to finish correcting the world since lucifer is no more.
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God bless.
