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Pneuma asked for any verse showing God predestined anyone to sin. I gave him this passage.
Acts 4:26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Scott responded with commentary by Adam Clark which said that "to do whatever your hand predestined..." applies to Christ rather than to the kings of the earth.
My post was pointing out the problem with this view. The problem is that greek verbs change spelling depending on whether the corresponding noun is "he" or "they" just like in English e.g. he runs but they run. And in this case, the spelling of the greek verb "to do" appears to agree with it being "they" (the kings of the earth) rather than "he" (Christ).
The overall question is, did God ever intend anyone to disobey Him.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 09:06 AM..
It works out in this way: We have free will, and that is why we are called by the bible and the church to believe in God.
We have the freedom to make up our own minds as to if we will believe or not, and can not blame anyone else for our decision.
and yet at the same time...
The over-all course of our lives is always under the careful guidance of our lord. For it is God and God alone who has brought us to the point where we believe in Him.
I don't have much of a problem with this view of free will esp. given the last bolded part which shows God as the ultimate cause, rather than our wills independent of God.
And similar to what this verse says. Paul did labor and obviosly Paul made choices to labor and while laboring, yet not Paul labored but the grace of God, because all that Paul became was by the grace of God.
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
God is taking faulty hearts and conforming them to the image of Christ.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 09:10 AM..
Pneuma asked for any verse showing God predestined anyone to sin. I gave him this passage.
Acts 4:26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Scott responded with commentary by Adam Clark which said that "to do whatever your hand predestined..." applies to Christ rather than to the kings of the earth.
My post was pointing out the problem with this view. The problem is that greek verbs change spelling depending on whether the corresponding noun is "he" or "they" just like in English e.g. he runs but they run. And in this case, the spelling of the greek verb "to do" appears to agree with it being "they" (the kings of the earth) rather than "he" (Christ).
I think your focused on the wrong thing here. The "to do" is spelled:
ποιησαι
This word is even spelled that way in this verse:
Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
In the verse in question the "Thy hand" is God's hand and is showing that it is God's hand that predestined for the Gentiles, Israelites, Pilate and Herod to do according to according to His counsel. That is where the focus should be. That verse shows that God is the one that predestined for Jesus to be crucified specifically at the hands of those mentioned.
For Pneuma to accept that - he would have to be "wrong" and so far he has not showed me that he is prepared to be "wrong".
Man's free will, and God's control of His creation work hand-in-hand.How?...like this:
The Story / Example:
Our lives are like a great ship that is at sea on a voyage.
We are like a passenger on board that ship. We have complete freedom to run around the deck in any direction we want.
Yes, there are limits to our freedoms, but for the most part we have the free will to run around, eat, sleep, do whatever comes normal to us.
and yet, at the same time...
The Captain of the ship is always in sole full control of that ships true heading.
Only the captain can order a change of direction of the ship...
So while the passenger on that great ship has the free will to stand on the deck and face the West, and even walk in that direction, the ship that passenger is standing on does not actually change course and can keep going East just fine.
What does this example mean about our lives?
It works out in this way: We have free will, and that is why we are called by the bible and the church to believe in God.
We have the freedom to make up our own minds as to if we will believe or not, and can not blame anyone else for our decision.
and yet at the same time...
The over-all course of our lives is always under the careful guidance of our lord. For it is God and God alone who has brought us to the point where we believe in Him.
I think your focused on the wrong thing here. The "to do" is spelled:
ποιησαι
This word is even spelled that way in this verse:
Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Ok, it may be that like in English there is ambiguity "I run", "you run". But the verse you gave is in the present tense, unlike the Acts verse, which also affects the spelling. You'd need to find verses with the same tense and mood as Acts, which I did, and compare when it is "I", "they", "he". Better yet, does e-sword give that infomation (1st/2nd/3rd person, singular/plural)? Or it might be a question for the greek scholar you corresponded with in the past. If esword says the verb is 3rd person singular then I'd agree with Scott. If 3rd person plural, then it corresponds with "they".
EDIT: I stand corrected. Your example is the same tense & moods as Acts. So it may be ambiguious unless e-sword can tell us.
Quote:
In the verse in question the "Thy hand" is God's hand and is showing that it is God's hand that predestined for the Gentiles, Israelites, Pilate and Herod to do according to according to His counsel.
Except Scott is saying that the verse DOES NOT read that way. It reads something like this:
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus (whom thou hast anointed to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done) both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together.
But for it to read that way the conjugation "to do" would have to agree with the noun being Christ.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 09:36 AM..
Ok, it may be that like in English there is ambiguity "I run", "you run". But the verse you gave is in the present tense, unlike the Acts verse, which also affects the spelling. You'd need to find verses with the same tense and mood as Acts, which I did, and compare when it is "I", "they", "he". Better yet, does e-sword give that infomation (1st/2nd/3rd person, singular/plural)? Or it might be a question for the greek scholar you corresponded with in the past. If esword says the verb is 3rd person singular then I'd agree with Scott. If 3rd person plural, then it corresponds with "they".
Except Scott is saying that the verse DOES NOT read that way. It reads something like this:
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus (whom thou hast anointed to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done) both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together.
But for it to read that way the conjugation "to do" would have to agree with the noun being Christ.
Yes, Bob, the verse I gave has the same tense/voice/mood at the one in Acts.
Man's free will, and God's control of His creation work hand-in-hand.How?...like this:
The Story / Example:
Our lives are like a great ship that is at sea on a voyage.
We are like a passenger on board that ship. We have complete freedom to run around the deck in any direction we want.
Yes, there are limits to our freedoms, but for the most part we have the free will to run around, eat, sleep, do whatever comes normal to us.
and yet, at the same time...
The Captain of the ship is always in sole full control of that ships true heading.
Only the captain can order a change of direction of the ship...
So while the passenger on that great ship has the free will to stand on the deck and face the West, and even walk in that direction, the ship that passenger is standing on does not actually change course and can keep going East just fine.
What does this example mean about our lives?
It works out in this way: We have free will, and that is why we are called by the bible and the church to believe in God.
We have the freedom to make up our own minds as to if we will believe or not, and can not blame anyone else for our decision.
and yet at the same time...
The over-all course of our lives is always under the careful guidance of our lord. For it is God and God alone who has brought us to the point where we believe in Him.
Hi Alan,
Here is some verses that shows Paul telling us about his will as opposed to God's will:
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Notice that Paul is saying that his preaching of the Gospel is against his own will. Paul shows that his own will - that if SELF is not the will by which he preaches the Gospel.
EDIT: Edit to add - This is a perfect example of Paul not taking credit according to his own will for preaching the Gospel. But yet many will take credit for their own efforts in RESPONDING to the calling of God which is very contrary to what Paul is showing here.
Paul
Last edited by trettep; 08-23-2009 at 09:54 AM..
Reason: To provide more clarification of the verses.
Notice that Paul is saying that his preaching of the Gospel is against his own will.
Yes, the better way to understand what Paul was pointing to is to understand it as "self interest'
Preaching to the world is never in one's "self interest"
(Going to the cross? also not really in a person's self interest)
Preaching to the world brings personal attacks.
It brings personal pain to your life.
It will force your family to disown you
It will cause your friends to walk away.
It may take you to the ends of the earth.
Cause you to die in hunger and thrust.
make you an outcast....broke...and dead.
Yes, to tell the truth, preaching to the Lost is never going to be in a person's self interest...
But it is just something that a Christian's heart cant stop from doing.
We are drawn to spreading the word...
Teaching, sharing, about Christ is a natural part of the christian walk...it's who we are...
But it's not in our self interest at all...
Notice where you wrote: "1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward..." What this part of the verse is talking about would be the preacher who gets a lot of money from his work spreading the Word....(Think of TBN type guys)
They do God's work, but they do it in self interest...they do it because of the personal gain they will get from it.
Had the bible wanted us to walk in our own self interest it would have told us that Jesus said, "Pick up your pillows and follow me"
Last edited by alanMolstad; 08-23-2009 at 10:11 AM..
Yes, Bob, the verse I gave has the same tense/voice/mood at the one in Acts.
Yeah, I discovered that too and edited my post. Does e-sword not have that information about the verb? (1st/2nd/3rd person singluar/plural)?
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