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I would have left off the "some how". We ARE responsible if we are not saved. Christ did the work,,all of it. But we must "enter" in, and only if He opens the Door. There in lays the paradox. The Way. Many different versions, and many different teachers, but only One Way is there.
Sorry, this is a complete contradiction HotinAZ... how is that we are not responsible for own salvation - for Christ did all the work... yet we are completely responsible if we are not saved?
Really you are saying its all up to us. We save ourselves by "entering in". Essentially: Christ didn't actually save anyone on the cross. He only opened the door to a possibility... it is still to my credit that I saved myself by being smart/lucky enough to enter.
[quote=legoman]As you pointed out we all have wills, and God has a will, and sometimes (most of the time) our will is not in line with God's will.
Like I said we don't really have a free will. We aren't "free" in the sense that all choices we make are influenced by something. Every choice has a cause or reason. We can't make a choice that is free from any cause - it is a law of the universe.
Perhaps another way to look at it is like this: We choose to do what we like, but we can't choose what we like. Did that make sense? Let me explain with an example.
I don't like raspberrys. My family thinks I'm crazy, but the seeds get stuck in my teeth. Therefore I don't choose to eat them (if I can help it). That is my will. However, and here is the important bit, I did not choose to not like raspberrys. Therefore my choice to not eat raspberrys is not really "free". I only choose to not eat them because I don't like them. Its just the way I was made.
Now back to your OP. We all start off not choosing God. There is none who do good. Scripture even tells us:
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Its our nature - we are all bad. Just like the leopard has spots. The leopard didn't "choose" to have spots. Thats how humanity starts out - they are all bad. Just like the leopard can't change its spots, we cannot change ourselves, of our own will, and choose to follow Christ on our own.
We will only follow Christ and choose Him when the Father changes us. Then we will desire to follow Christ and we will choose him (but only after He has chosen us). John 6:44 and 6:65 confirms this thought. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father enables him and drags him.
Now what about verses like Luke 13:34 above? I believe they did not come because the Father had not enabled them yet.
There is no human will that wil resist God when God the Father enables them to believe and understand. This is what we mean when we say God opens their eyes. Their eyes had simply not been opened yet in Luke 13:34. They had a will, and they "willed not", because they cannot do anything else until God the Father draws them in.[/quote]...and to the purple bolden, I say an EXTRA, AMEN!
Did you know that, although God purposely gave man a will, when we are born again our lives no longer belong to us?
...When you are TRULY born again of the Spirit, your old man dies and Jesus Christ lives His Life and Will through your TOTALLY SURRENDERED LIFE.
When you come to Christ, you SURRENDER your will.
This does not mean that when you become a Christian all of your decisions will be made automatically...that you will have no control over your actions...or that you will no longer have a will. No, you do not lose your will. You will continue to face decisions involving right and wrong, but it means that your will must be kept continually in line with the Word of God. Your will must become Christ's will. His desires must become your desires. And His purpose must become your purpose.
Do you want to be used of God?
Then this process of dying to self is not optional. It is a requirement if we are to be true followers or disciples of Christ (Galatians 2:20).
In Love,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 09-17-2009 at 10:26 AM..
No problem Fundy, actually I enjoy studying this topic alot. But many people don't understand when you try to explain they don't really have a "free" will.
As you pointed out we all have wills, and God has a will, and sometimes (most of the time) our will is not in line with God's will.
Like I said we don't really have a free will. We aren't "free" in the sense that all choices we make are influenced by something. Every choice has a cause or reason. We can't make..................
I know that because Calvinist say the same BUT there are many verses from the arminian side to contradict what you said?
Did you know that, although God purposely gave man a will, when we are born again our lives no longer belong to us?
...When you are TRULY born again of the Spirit, your old man dies and Jesus Christ lives His Life and Will through your TOTALLY SURRENDERED LIFE.
When you come to Christ, you SURRENDER your will.
This does not mean that when you become a Christian all of your decisions will be made automatically...that you will have no control over your actions...or that you will no longer have a will. No, you do not lose your will. You will continue to face decisions involving right and wrong, but it means that your will must be kept continually in line with the Word of God. Your will must become Christ's will. His desires must become your desires. And His purpose must become your purpose.
Do you want to be used of God?
Then this process of dying to self is not optional. It is a requirement if we are to be true followers or disciples of Christ (Galatians 2:20).
I would say both, definitive for the generation Jesus told and conditional for the generation when Jesus returns-the final judgment.
If what you say is true then you are changing the meaning of the word. There are 139 verses that use the word heos and even then it is temporal not definite. In other words, until means it will happen. The house is left desolate until they say he is Lord. Not UNLESS they say he is Lord but UNTIL. ei me is conditional.
It is not up to them whether they say he is Lord. They will say it. It is just a matter of when.
I know that because Calvinist say the same BUT there are many verses from the arminian side to contradict what you said?
Yes I think this is the one part the Calvinists got right (although even some Calvinists don't believe it). Anyway, what are these alleged "arminian" verses? Sure there are verses that say "you must choose God", "you must believe", etc. And these are all true.
But they don't contradict the fact that no one can choose God until God draws/drags them and enables them and opens their eyes. God chooses first, then we will choose Him.
Refer back to my example about raspberry's. Its like this: we were born with the desire to not choose God. We cannot change this about ourselves until God does. Then we have the desire to choose God. Therefore we will (and must) choose God, but not until God gives us the desire.
This image illustrates my feelings on the topic.
God reaching out to us, we only need to reach too.
In this image, it would appear that God is reaching a bit more.
Sorry, this is a complete contradiction HotinAZ... how is that we are not responsible for own salvation - for Christ did all the work... yet we are completely responsible if we are not saved?
Really you are saying its all up to us. We save ourselves by "entering in". Essentially: Christ didn't actually save anyone on the cross. He only opened the door to a possibility... it is still to my credit that I saved myself by being smart/lucky enough to enter.
Sorry, that is not what scripture says.
How is it a complete contradiction?
Jesus did ALL the work. We still have to enter.
Kinda like saying Jesus built a house. In the house He had many rooms. Your name is etched on one of the doors. With me, so far? Let us say this house is the only house on the planet that will survive a nuclear war. Now, the Jesus has told you that you must enter into the house, to save your earthly life. All flesh on the outside is destroyed. Gone. Forevermore.
So, is there anything left up to you to do?
Does any parables come to mind?
Saying Jesus did all the work, and there is nothing that you have to do in order to be saved, is like saying He built the house AROUND you. That is not what He says.
Kinda like saying Jesus built a house. In the house He had many rooms. Your name is etched on one of the doors. With me, so far? Let us say this house is the only house on the planet that will survive a nuclear war. Now, the Jesus has told you that you must enter into the house, to save your earthly life. All flesh on the outside is destroyed. Gone. Forevermore.
So, is there anything left up to you to do?
Does any parables come to mind?
Saying Jesus did all the work, and there is nothing that you have to do in order to be saved, is like saying He built the house AROUND you. That is not what He says.
He did say that to his followers. He said to get out of Jerusalem if you see this and that so that your life will be saved. YOUR LIFE, as in not dying. He never implied or said that if you don't do this or that you will not share in his promise of spiritual life. If you can find verses otherwise let me know, I may have missed them.
He did say that to his followers. He said to get out of Jerusalem if you see this and that so that your life will be saved. YOUR LIFE, as in not dying. He never implied or said that if you don't do this or that you will not share in his promise of spiritual life. If you can find verses otherwise let me know, I may have missed them.
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.
There are more,,,but you should get the point.
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