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Old 09-17-2009, 09:48 AM
 
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I borrowed this from another thread. Legoman I pray you don't mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Yes of course I chose to post this. You miss the point. The point is: we choose to do things based on what we think is true. But what we think is true may be a deception. Athiests choose to not believe in God because their eyes have not been opened yet. But when God opens a persons eyes, they will choose to follow Christ, because now they see!

No, Satan deceives the world (Rev 12:9). One of the ways he deceives the world is by tricking people into thinking they are in control, when really God is in control.

So what you are saying is that God revealed himself to you, revealed how sinful you were and then based on that you chose to follow him. Exactly! If God hadn't revealed this to you, you would have continued in your sin, blind to God, and deceived.

Just like others, who have not had those revelations yet; they will not choose to follow Christ, simply because God hasn't revealed Himself yet. And while they are in that state - they are deceived, and don't even know it.
Now many in here know I adopt a Calvinist approach to scripture but like I tell many Calvinist to not have a dogmatic approach about salvation primarily dealing with God's sovereignty vs man's will-that our will has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that is both dangerous and not biblical.

There are scriptures that support that God was willing but man's will wasn't. I personally believe this is a paradox in the bible. Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.

(Luke 13:34) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

There is a great tenderness in these words, as seen in imagery of a hen with chickens. This outpouring of divine compassion foreshadows His weeping over the city as He approached it for the final time, clearly these are deep sincere emotions. "I wanted....you would not. I "willed", but you "willed not". Christ repeated expression of grief over the plight of Jerusalem do not diminish the absolute sovereignty over all that happens. Nor should the truth of divine sovereignty be used to depreciate the sincerity of His compassion. Yet we see God willing, begging, pleading and the Jews stubborness rejecting Him.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-17-2009 at 10:00 AM..
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:58 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,917,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I borrowed this from another thread. Legoman I pray you don't mind.



Now many in here know I adopt a Calvinist approach to the gospel but like I tell many Calvinist to not have a dogmatic approach about salvation is the respects of God's sovereignty vs man's will-that our will has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that is both dangerous and not biblical.

There are scriptures that support that God was willing but man's will wasn't. I personally believe this is a paradox in the bible. Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.

(Luke 13:34) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

There is a great tenderness in these words, as seen in imagery of a hen with chickens. This outpouring of divine compassion foreshadows His weeping over the city as He approached it for the final time, clearly these are deep sincere emotions. "I wanted....you would not. I "willed", but you "willed not". Christ repeated expression of grief over the plight of Jerusalem do not dimish the absolute sovereignty over all that happens. Nor should the truth of divine sovereignty be used to depreciate the sincerity of His compassion. Yet we see God willing, begging, pleading and the Jews stubborness rejecting Him.

Great post Fundy.

Quote:
Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.
I would have left off the "some how". We ARE responsible if we are not saved. Christ did the work,,all of it. But we must "enter" in, and only if He opens the Door. There in lays the paradox. The Way. Many different versions, and many different teachers, but only One Way is there.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,959,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I borrowed this from another thread. Legoman I pray you don't mind.



Now many in here know I adopt a Calvinist approach to scripture but like I tell many Calvinist to not have a dogmatic approach about salvation primarily dealing with God's sovereignty vs man's will-that our will has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that is both dangerous and not biblical.

There are scriptures that support that God was willing but man's will wasn't. I personally believe this is a paradox in the bible. Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.

(Luke 13:34) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

There is a great tenderness in these words, as seen in imagery of a hen with chickens. This outpouring of divine compassion foreshadows His weeping over the city as He approached it for the final time, clearly these are deep sincere emotions. "I wanted....you would not. I "willed", but you "willed not". Christ repeated expression of grief over the plight of Jerusalem do not diminish the absolute sovereignty over all that happens. Nor should the truth of divine sovereignty be used to depreciate the sincerity of His compassion. Yet we see God willing, begging, pleading and the Jews stubborness rejecting Him.
You forgot the rest of the passage in Luke...
Luke 13: 34 "Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." and the corresponding passage in Psalm 118:26. Their House is left desolate... The Lord doesn't dwell there UNTIL you say... is that a definitive or a conditional statement?
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I borrowed this from another thread. Legoman I pray you don't mind.



Now many in here know I adopt a Calvinist approach to the gospel but like I tell many Calvinist to not have a dogmatic approach about salvation is the respects of God's sovereignty vs man's will-that our will has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that is both dangerous and not biblical.

There are scriptures that support that God was willing but man's will wasn't. I personally believe this is a paradox in the bible. Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.

(Luke 13:34) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

There is a great tenderness in these words, as seen in imagery of a hen with chickens. This outpouring of divine compassion foreshadows His weeping over the city as He approached it for the final time, clearly these are deep sincere emotions. "I wanted....you would not. I "willed", but you "willed not". Christ repeated expression of grief over the plight of Jerusalem do not dimish the absolute sovereignty over all that happens. Nor should the truth of divine sovereignty be used to depreciate the sincerity of His compassion. Yet we see God willing, begging, pleading and the Jews stubborness rejecting Him.

No problem Fundy, actually I enjoy studying this topic alot. But many people don't understand when you try to explain they don't really have a "free" will.

As you pointed out we all have wills, and God has a will, and sometimes (most of the time) our will is not in line with God's will.

Like I said we don't really have a free will. We aren't "free" in the sense that all choices we make are influenced by something. Every choice has a cause or reason. We can't make a choice that is free from any cause - it is a law of the universe.

Perhaps another way to look at it is like this: We choose to do what we like, but we can't choose what we like. Did that make sense? Let me explain with an example.

I don't like raspberrys. My family thinks I'm crazy, but the seeds get stuck in my teeth. Therefore I don't choose to eat them (if I can help it). That is my will. However, and here is the important bit, I did not choose to not like raspberrys. Therefore my choice to not eat raspberrys is not really "free". I only choose to not eat them because I don't like them. Its just the way I was made.

Now back to your OP. We all start off not choosing God. There is none who do good. Scripture even tells us:

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Its our nature - we are all bad. Just like the leopard has spots. The leopard didn't "choose" to have spots. Thats how humanity starts out - they are all bad. Just like the leopard can't change its spots, we cannot change ourselves, of our own will, and choose to follow Christ on our own.

We will only follow Christ and choose Him when the Father changes us. Then we will desire to follow Christ and we will choose him (but only after He has chosen us). John 6:44 and 6:65 confirms this thought. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father enables him and drags him.

Now what about verses like Luke 13:34 above? I believe they did not come because the Father had not enabled them yet.

There is no human will that wil resist God when God the Father enables them to believe and understand. This is what we mean when we say God opens their eyes. Their eyes had simply not been opened yet in Luke 13:34. They had a will, and they "willed not", because they cannot do anything else until God the Father draws them in.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:10 AM
 
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To me the dispute is not over our own will, it is whether God gives up under any circumstances.

I don't see the examples and translations people use to build cases for their doctrines is a finality of Gods complete removal of hope for anyone, ever.

God will have to force me to believe that he gives up, he's the only one that will be able to be convincing enough.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:11 AM
 
Location: southern california
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its like people relations. if we get ignored and chase 24/7 and lavish attention with nothing in return it could be codependency. i dont think god is codependent. i think a lota people have already been dumped and dont know it.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:17 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 13,901,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You forgot the rest of the passage in Luke...
Luke 13: 34 "Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." and the corresponding passage in Psalm 118:26. Their House is left desolate... The Lord doesn't dwell there UNTIL you say... is that a definitive or a conditional statement?
I would say both, definitive for the generation Jesus told and conditional for the generation when Jesus returns-the final judgment.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:20 AM
 
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Another good point to know here is the difference between God's plan and God's intention.

Both of these sometimes get called "God's will", but really they are different. God's intention is the final goal of God - which is to bring all things together under one head in Christ. God's intention is for all to do His will - to be obedient and love one another.

But his plan sometimes runs very contrary (for a time) to his final goal. God's plan involves us being disobedient (even though eventually He wants us all to be obedient). The plan is the means to get to the goal. Who has resisted his goal? Everyone. Who has resisted His plan? No one.

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

This is talking about God's plan. No one has resisted it, even when we are disobedient. For God has bound us to disobedience:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

These things are not obvious as we go about our daily lives, but never the less they are true if you believe God's word.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
To me the dispute is not over our own will, it is whether God gives up under any circumstances.

I don't see the examples and translations people use to build cases for their doctrines is a finality of Gods complete removal of hope for anyone, ever.

God will have to force me to believe that he gives up, he's the only one that will be able to be convincing enough.
Agreed this is another way to look at it.

We could also say God will eventually bring everyone's will inline with His. That is what happens to each one of as we come to know Christ.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Agreed this is another way to look at it.

We could also say God will eventually bring everyone's will inline with His. That is what happens to each one of as we come to know Christ.
Yep, the idea does not negate judgment either. I have suffered consequenses and because of that there are things I have turned from that I will never return to, but the consequenses of my actions did not eternally damn me.

That judgment and suffering brought me closer. Everyone can argue all they want. I reject the many paths argument that escapes Christ, but what people do not see is that there are countless ways we can go before we arrive at that point. Some easy, some hard. but God never gives up till 100% are found.

99% just isn't good enough for God. And yes, GOD chooses 100% of us (don't want to derail the OP) .
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