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Old 09-21-2009, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,120,836 times
Reputation: 230

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Are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to contend against other sincere followers because they have some different beliefs



Believers are commanded to defend the faith and to expose deception.

Jude 3,4; Eph.5:11; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:2-3; Titus 1:13.

Paul had some strong words for the socerer El'ymas in Acts 13:10 "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

Those who think believers are to be nothing but sweetness and light don't know what the Bible has to say about it."

Unquote

*****



Anyway, if it's true that the scriptures command Writer to contend with other followers of Jesus Christ, then it is just as true that other followers of Jesus Christ are commanded to contend with Writer and his package of understandings and beliefs.

But let's have a good look at the six scriptures Writer refers to to 'justify' putting down the beliefs of other sincere followers of Jesus Christ who do not agree with his own package of bible understandings.


1. "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 1: 3,4

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/3-4#3[/URL]


The writer of the book of Jude is asking the Saints to oppose ATHEISTS and those who preach and teach LASCIVIOUSNESS.

The writer is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



2. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Ephesians 5: 11

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/5/11#11[/URL]


Paul admonishes the Saints to not be involved with those who engage in works of darkness. And in the verses prior to verse 11 Paul names some of those works of darkness to avoid and to speak out against: FORNICATION, UNCLEANNESS, COVETOUSNESS, FILTHINESS, FOOLISH TALKING, WHOREMONGERS, IDOLATERS.

Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



3. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Peter 2: 1-2

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_pet/2/1-2#1[/URL]


Peter is warning the Saints to avoid false teachers, especially those who speak to them in private and DENY THE LORD. In verses to follow, Peter further describes some of those things the false teachers try to convince the Saints to do: WALK AFTER THE FLESH, LUST, UNCLEANNESS, PRESUMPTUOUS, SELFWILLED, SPEAKING EVIL OF DIGNITIES, BRINGING RAILING ACCUSATIONS, NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, SPEAKING EVIL OF THINGS THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND, RIOTING, EYES FULL OF ADULTERY, CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN, BEGUILING UNSTABLE SOULS, COVETOUS PRACTICES,

"For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness..." (verse 18)

Peter is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs! In fact in this chapter Peter is warning the Saints NOT to bring railing accusations or to speak evil of things they do not understand (e.g. the religious beliefs of other denominations!)



4. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" Timothy 4: 2-3


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_tim/4/2-3#2[/URL]


Paul is close to dying and is writing to Timothy to charge him to continue preaching the gospel even though apostasy is becoming rampant among the Saints. He says that the time will come when the Saints will no longer accept the pure doctrines taught by Jesus and the Apostles but will attract and reward teachers who will allow them to give in to their lusts and still think they are following Christ.

Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



5. "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" Titus 1: 13

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/titus/1/13#13[/URL]


This one is a huge stretch if Writer or anyone else is trying to convince themselves that the Lord has commanded them to rail against sincere followers of Jesus Christ! Paul is referring to gainsayers who are NOT Saints, people who are UNRULY, VAIN TALKERS, DECEIVERS, TEACHING "FOR FILTHY LUCRE'S SAKE" (paid preachers.) But one of those gainsayers speaks against the Cretians, calling them liars, evil beasts and slow bellies. Paul says that's TRUE - so rebuke the CRETIANS!


Paul says to Titus about those who are defiled:



"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (verses 15 and 16)


Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



Five tries and five failures so far. How about Writer's final fling at justifying from the Bible his habit of contending with and railing against sincere followers of Jesus Christ instead of against works of darkness such as adultery?



6. "And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Acts 13: 10

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/13/10#10[/URL]


Here's the context: "And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-jesus:" (verse 6)

Paul is contending against a known sorcerer, an enemy of righteousness, he strikes him blind.





My advice to Writer and others like him who contend against sincere FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST just because those followers do not bow down to his/their rigid package of beliefs and opinions and interpretations of certain verses from the Bible:


"Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is." Ephesians 5: 17

[i]http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/5/17#17[/I[/url]]



Are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to contend against other sincere followers because they have some different beliefs?


What do you think?

Last edited by Miss Blue; 09-21-2009 at 11:00 AM.. Reason: Edited for a better discussion
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,120,836 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Ummmmmmmmm....Aren't you doing the same to him and others like him just because He does not agree with your views of how we should deal with one another? You were doing so well then you used a "worldly concept" of what is to support you side. You claim to have the right interpretation and telling another he is wrong.....so how are you any different? How are you not unChristian, unloving, intolerant?
Changed that so we can discuss the issue, thanks.
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,133,990 times
Reputation: 1708
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to contend against other sincere followers because they have some different beliefs?

A writer who is known for putting down certain denominations recently posted the following. I thought the response deserved a thread of its own because it's not an uncommon thing for some sincere followers of Jesus Christ to do and I think it should be discussed.


*****
"My statement wasn't intended to be rude, simply factual. Whether it's Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist's, New Ageism, etc..., or views such as Preterism, or annihilation, or universalism, or any of the other countless deceptions and distortions that are out there, if they are in conflict with what the Word of God teaches, I will point it out. They all have as their point of origin, Satanic deception.

Believers are commanded to defend the faith and to expose deception.

Jude 3,4; Eph.5:11; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:2-3; Titus 1:13.

Paul had some strong words for the socerer El'ymas in Acts 13:10 "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

Those who think believers are to be nothing but sweetness and light don't know what the Bible has to say about it."

Unquote

*****


Let's call that person "Writer".

Writer, like some other possibly sincere and well-meaning but in my opinion waay out of line Christians, apparently enjoys "contending" with fellow followers of Jesus Christ who do not believe exactly as he does because he thinks he is commanded by verses in the Bible to do so.

Anyway, if it's true that the scriptures command Writer to contend with other followers of Jesus Christ, then it is just as true that other followers of Jesus Christ are commanded to contend with Writer and his package of understandings and beliefs.

But let's have a good look at the six scriptures Writer refers to to 'justify' his, in my opinion, unChristian, unloving, intolerant manner of putting down the beliefs of other sincere followers of Jesus Christ who do not agree with his own package of bible understandings.


1. "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 1: 3,4

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/3-4#3[/URL]


The writer of the book of Jude is asking the Saints to oppose ATHEISTS and those who preach and teach LASCIVIOUSNESS.

The writer is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



2. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Ephesians 5: 11

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/5/11#11[/URL]


Paul admonishes the Saints to not be involved with those who engage in works of darkness. And in the verses prior to verse 11 Paul names some of those works of darkness to avoid and to speak out against: FORNICATION, UNCLEANNESS, COVETOUSNESS, FILTHINESS, FOOLISH TALKING, WHOREMONGERS, IDOLATERS.

Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



3. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Peter 2: 1-2

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_pet/2/1-2#1[/URL]


Peter is warning the Saints to avoid false teachers, especially those who speak to them in private and DENY THE LORD. In verses to follow, Peter further describes some of those things the false teachers try to convince the Saints to do: WALK AFTER THE FLESH, LUST, UNCLEANNESS, PRESUMPTUOUS, SELFWILLED, SPEAKING EVIL OF DIGNITIES, BRINGING RAILING ACCUSATIONS, NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, SPEAKING EVIL OF THINGS THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND, RIOTING, EYES FULL OF ADULTERY, CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN, BEGUILING UNSTABLE SOULS, COVETOUS PRACTICES,

"For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness..." (verse 18)

Peter is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs! In fact in this chapter Peter is warning the Saints NOT to bring railing accusations or to speak evil of things they do not understand (e.g. the religious beliefs of other denominations!)



4. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" Timothy 4: 2-3


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_tim/4/2-3#2[/URL]


Paul is close to dying and is writing to Timothy to charge him to continue preaching the gospel even though apostasy is becoming rampant among the Saints. He says that the time will come when the Saints will no longer accept the pure doctrines taught by Jesus and the Apostles but will attract and reward teachers who will allow them to give in to their lusts and still think they are following Christ.

Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



5. "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" Titus 1: 13

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/titus/1/13#13[/URL]


This one is a huge stretch if Writer or anyone else is trying to convince themselves that the Lord has commanded them to rail against sincere followers of Jesus Christ! Paul is referring to gainsayers who are NOT Saints, people who are UNRULY, VAIN TALKERS, DECEIVERS, TEACHING "FOR FILTHY LUCRE'S SAKE" (paid preachers.) But one of those gainsayers speaks against the Cretians, calling them liars, evil beasts and slow bellies. Paul says that's TRUE - so rebuke the CRETIANS!


Paul says to Titus about those who are defiled:



"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (verses 15 and 16)


Paul is NOT saying that the Saints should contend with sincere fellow followers of Jesus Christ who may have some different religious beliefs!



Five tries and five failures so far. How about Writer's final fling at justifying from the Bible his habit of contending with and railing against sincere followers of Jesus Christ instead of against works of darkness such as adultery?



6. "And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Acts 13: 10

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/13/10#10[/URL]


Here's the context: "And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-jesus:" (verse 6)

Paul is contending against a known sorcerer, an enemy of righteousness, he strikes him blind.

It seems to me that Writer is in an uncomfortable place if he honestly thinks God is commanding him to rail against the Latter-day Saints and other sincere followers of Jesus Christ just because Paul rebuked a sorcerer!



My advice to Writer and others like him who contend against sincere FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST just because those followers do not bow down to his/their rigid package of beliefs and opinions and interpretations of certain verses from the Bible:


"Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is." Ephesians 5: 17

[i]http://scriptures.lds.org/en/eph/5/17#17[/I[/url]]



Are followers of Jesus Christ commanded to contend against other sincere followers because they have some different beliefs?


What do you think?
No. Debating may be amusing and certainly educational. But if you judge a person by their beliefs in non-essential doctrine then the simple message of Jesus is lost. There are more important things to worry about than implying a person is not saved, or bound for hell because they don't believe in hell, etc..
Like, God is love. He that loveth not is not of God.
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,120,836 times
Reputation: 230
I apologize for the links that no longer work. Everything was working when I started this thread and posted my message, but somebody messed with the links and changed some of what I had to say.

Last edited by justamere10; 09-21-2009 at 01:32 PM..
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: California
87 posts, read 122,443 times
Reputation: 41
Just a note: A follower of Jesus doesn't always indicate a follower of the Bible. You may believe it should but it doesn't.
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:57 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 13,118,549 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtue_summer View Post
Just a note: A follower of Jesus doesn't always indicate a follower of the Bible. You may believe it should but it doesn't.
How can you be a follower of Jesus if you not a follower of His word?
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:58 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 13,118,549 times
Reputation: 748
The wor is "Koinonia"
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Old 09-21-2009, 01:10 PM
 
Location: California
87 posts, read 122,443 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
How can you be a follower of Jesus if you not a follower of His word?
Easy. You're not one who assumes the entire Bible is his word.
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Old 09-21-2009, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,120,836 times
Reputation: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post

Believers are commanded to defend the faith and to expose deception.

Jude 3,4; Eph.5:11; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:2-3; Titus 1:13.

Paul had some strong words for the socerer El'ymas in Acts 13:10 "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

Those who think believers are to be nothing but sweetness and light don't know what the Bible has to say about it."
I just wanted to make it clear that my opening post was altered after I could no longer edit it and that none of the words above were written by me, they were originally a quote.

Hopefully that will change the tone of the discussion and this thread can still have a chance at being discussed. I think it's a timely and important issue and pertinent to everyone on this forum.
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Old 09-21-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,502,467 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I just wanted to make it clear that my opening post was altered after I could no longer edit it and that none of the words above were written by me, they were originally a quote.

Hopefully that will change the tone of the discussion and this thread can still have a chance at being discussed. I think it's a timely and important issue and pertinent to everyone on this forum.
I'm really having trouble figuring out what it is you are trying to discuss given the long post I read...what is it you are trying to say?
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