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Also I have a question. If you can say that eternal is eternal.... does it say anywhere that the second coming will be an eternity away? Cuz that would convince me of the meaning....
God cannot and will not allow His Holiness to be compromised. He cannot allow sinful man, He cannot allow sin into His presence.
Which is why he instituted grace rather than the law.
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Therefore His Holiness--His righteousness and justice; must be satisfied by the atoning work of Christ on the Cross. Each individual member of the human race must make a personal decision to believe in Christ for salvation in order to be allowed into the presence of God.
That goes against the fact that the gift was given before the receiver could receive. God tells us that the gift, the word, was from the beginning. How can you choose to receive something that was given before you came to be?
Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
So when you are paid for working it is not a gift. If you trust God but do no work your faith is credited to you as righteousness.
Then Paul goes on to say that blessed are those whose sin is not counted against them.
Romans 4: 9-10
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
The righteousness is credited before the circumcision, before the works!
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As I said, God's love motivated his grace toward us, but it is only by His righteous requirements being satisfied that we can be saved.
This is the law! We are under grace not the law. Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
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Rather than looking up dictionary definitions of Holiness, go to the Bible.
Lev. 11:45 ''For I am the LORD; who brought you up from the land of Egypt, to be your God; thus you shall be holy for I am holy.''
Lev. 19:2 ''You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.''
Revelation 4:8 ''And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within: and day and night they do not cease to say, ''HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, who was and who is and who is to come.''
Yes I get that God was holy.... I don't dispute that only your definition of holiness.
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Jeremiah 9:24 ''but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,'' declares the LORD.
How do these verses prove that his justice and righteousness trumps or overrules his lovingkindness? What verse proves that his justice and righteousness can't be satisfied with Christ? Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
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God's love is infinite and so is His Holiness. If you reject the demands of His Holiness which requires that you accept the work of Christ on the Cross on your behalf by believing in Him (WHILE YOU ARE ALIVE ON THIS EARTH, NOT AFTER YOU ARE DEAD), then His love will not save you at some future time. ''...it is appointed unto men to die once, and after this comes judgment. (Hebrews 9:27) AND UNDERSTAND THIS. HIS JUDGEMENT IS ETERNAL. THE SENTENCE IS ETERNAL. The lake of fire is eternal and your existance in a resurrected body in the lake of fire is eternal. Forever. Unendng. And the only way to avoid this is by the Cross. Period.
There are no demands of His Holiness which require that you accept the work of Christ on the Cross.... God does not demand this. These are your rules.
Matthew 7:2 (New International Version) 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
If these are your rules, I hope you enjoy them.
Strawman, no one is saying "eternity" means temporary. It is about context and usage of greek words and when and why they mean temporary or everlasting in a given verse.
Aion does have the proper meaning of age depending upon how it is used.
Aionios in an adjective of aion, so in the proper context and usage then it can mean pertaining to an age.
Of course it can. And I have said so in my post concerning dispensations. But it can and does carry the meaning of eternal when used in that context.
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To say someone is worshipping a word because they look at it's proper use is ridiculous.
My point is to show how far some people will go in denying the truth in order to push a false and very blasphemous theology.
No really I'm serious. If the bible said that Jesus would come in an eternity, I would have to say it meant eternity, not ages. It seems to go on without end, and no one can decide on a beginning since Jesus was supposed to be with God when he created the plan in the first place.
I think I have more evidence by definition of an eternal wait for the rapture than I have of eternal life considering life ends in death.
When you understand the process Phaze, you realize this is not really so true. If one has not yet TRULY repented of their sins...I mean like crying out in utter sorrow of heart from the very depths of their soul in sorrow for their sins, and tell God with a pure heart how sorry they are, He sees this Phaze...it's for real, you are going through something wonderful in this repentent stage...this is where He's been trying to bring this one to during the whole process, where they desire with all of their heart to please Him instead of themselves...this is the burning of the flesh...this is the "being submitted to Him" part that He wants us all to grow to. This is the sweet aroma of burning flesh that God so loves to breath! This is where we are a living sacrifice to Him...and He loves this more than anything.
I have to disagree based on my own life. I cannot speak for yours. We are trained in religion to make spiritual judgments based upon observation more than the understanding of the spirit. This is a false way to determine anything. If a person knows thier own life, then they understand when others think wrongly based upon what they see. While I know that I was judged based on something I once did no one could see the war that raged within. When we are honest about sitting and crying out, yet still being disobedient, the logic of eternal damnation as a literal reality rather than a perception of our circumstance doesn;t hold up unless we can understand that based on that, we have no real assurance.
Unfortunatly, people do live by that logic, but it simply shows that mans logic is not greater than Gods promises.
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Never forget we do have a free will to choose Phaze...please never forget this...it is crucial in your growth as a Christian...without realizing this aspect of your process...(your free will to choose), you'll forever be waiting for Him to do something...when it is actually Him waiting for you to do something...then what is your responsibility is never met...and He's still waiting...forever waiting...
I have repeatedly said we have a will and that it is free to choose. The issue is applying it correctly to scripture which most do not. Most extract the term and use the term apart from it's scriptural application and that is where confusion comes from.
You cannot make a proper argument that our will is completely independant of God while reading the story of the potter and the clay, it is impossible to do so and not contradict.
The whole point is that living clay (us) and actual potters clay naturally
resist being formed, it must be worked with precision. But if your a master potter it matter not that the clay resists.
The story in scripture is not all there is to it. You can throw yourself around and fall in a great lump of misery but the master potter knows what he will have to do in order to make sure you learn righteousness.
It is the story that builds the case in scripture, not my opinion that all creation has a relationship with the father, our free will is about what the father has to do to form us, not us choosing to tell God how it is done.
What I know is the aspect of God that is not about me, my choices have not determined anything but whether I suffered more or less in my walk than perhaps I needed to.
The more we try to think our choice is why God loves us the further we get from scripture.
God loves us first and that is an action that causes us to love him.
The only thing observation can prove is that we each come at a different time.
Which is why he instituted grace rather than the law.
That goes against the fact that the gift was given before the receiver could receive. God tells us that the gift, the word, was from the beginning. How can you choose to receive something that was given before you came to be?
Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
So when you are paid for working it is not a gift. If you trust God but do no work your faith is credited to you as righteousness.
Then Paul goes on to say that blessed are those whose sin is not counted against them.
Romans 4: 9-10
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
The righteousness is credited before the circumcision, before the works!
This is the law! We are under grace not the law. Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Yes I get that God was holy.... I don't dispute that only your definition of holiness.
How do these verses prove that his justice and righteousness trumps or overrules his lovingkindness? What verse proves that his justice and righteousness can't be satisfied with Christ? Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
There are no demands of His Holiness which require that you accept the work of Christ on the Cross.... God does not demand this. These are your rules.
Matthew 7:2 (New International Version) 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
If these are your rules, I hope you enjoy them.
You continually come to the wrong conclusions and show a gross inability to comprehend the scriptures. And you again distort what I say. I have always defended grace as opposed to the law.
The law is set aside because Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law. And since the believer is in Christ the law is dead to Christians. That in no way sets aside God's Holiness. The purpose of the law was to show that sinful man cannot cannot save Himself by keeping the law, because he cannot keep the law. But Jesus Christ who is without sin did keep the Law, and that satisfied the righteous requirements of God.
In your saying that there are no demands of His Holiness which require that you accept the work of Christ on the cross, you ignore and deny every single scripture that tells you that you must believe in Christ.
I am done with answering any more of your questions as it is a waste of time.
You continually come to the wrong conclusions and show a gross inability to comprehend the scriptures. And you again distort what I say. I have always defended grace as opposed to the law.
I reread my post and I don't see how you say I come to the wrong conclusions. The bible is what I used and I showed you the verses.
I directly quoted you so I don't know how I distorted what you said.
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The law is set aside because Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law. And since the believer is in Christ the law is dead to Christians. That in no way sets aside God's Holiness. The purpose of the law was to show that sinful man cannot cannot save Himself by keeping the law, because he cannot keep the law. But Jesus Christ who is without sin did keep the Law, and that satisfied the righteous requirements of God.
Like I asked...what exactly do you count as his holiness? If you are counted as righteous before you are circumcised (before any works) then there is no need to "demand" from holiness and that negates righteous requirements.
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In your saying that there are no demands of His Holiness which require that you accept the work of Christ on the cross, you ignore and deny every single scripture that tells you that you must believe in Christ.
You cannot believe in something you do not know... come on! Christ is there, you see him, you believe. How does that affect your righteousness or the work of Christ on the cross.
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I am done with answering any more of your questions as it is a waste of time.
Well that is your choice, and you've said it to me more than once. It doesn't bother me. I only caution you that when you say there are things that must be done to acquire salvation you are saying that works must be done to acquire salvation. Anyway, bygones!
I have to disagree based on my own life. I cannot speak for yours. We are trained in religion to make spiritual judgments based upon observation more than the understanding of the spirit. This is a false way to determine anything. If a person knows thier own life, then they understand when others think wrongly based upon what they see. While I know that I was judged based on something I once did no one could see the war that raged within. When we are honest about sitting and crying out, yet still being disobedient, the logic of eternal damnation as a literal reality rather than a perception of our circumstance doesn;t hold up unless we can understand that based on that, we have no real assurance.
...Phaze, it takes a lot more than just once or twice to sit and cry out to God...I can't count the times I cried out to God in pain...that's part of the process, and that's good, and even being disobedient again afterwards...it just means you haven't truly repented yet...so you are still growing and learning...and never stop crying to God Phaze...it is in these moments He is strengthening you...allow yourself to fail, it is o.k. to fail...fall...but fall forward Phaze...always fall forward...God is never going to leave you, no matter how many times you fall....and there will be a day when all your falls turn into steady, strong strides!!!...don't be so hard on yourself.
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Originally Posted by Phaze
Unfortunatly, people do live by that logic, but it simply shows that mans logic is not greater than Gods promises.
Remember ALL of His promises Phaze...even the one's that may seem wrong...they are still His promises...His justice...His Holiness.
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Originally Posted by Phaze
I have repeatedly said we have a will and that it is free to choose. The issue is applying it correctly to scripture which most do not. Most extract the term and use the term apart from it's scriptural application and that is where confusion comes from.
Would you mind explaining what you mean here...I'm not sure I understand...Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Phaze
You cannot make a proper argument that our will is completely independant of God while reading the story of the potter and the clay, it is impossible to do so and not contradict.
And you cannnot make a proper argument that our will is not independant of Him when you truly study the Scripture that support this Phaze...if you're really being honest with yourself about it, it is true...way too much Bible says we have a choice...bottom line.
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Originally Posted by Phaze
The whole point is that living clay (us) and actual potters clay naturally
resist being formed, it must be worked with precision. But if your a master potter it matter not that the clay resists.
The story in scripture is not all there is to it. You can throw yourself around and fall in a great lump of misery but the master potter knows what he will have to do in order to make sure you learn righteousness.
It is the story that builds the case in scripture, not my opinion that all creation has a relationship with the father, our free will is about what the father has to do to form us, not us choosing to tell God how it is done.
What I know is the aspect of God that is not about me, my choices have not determined anything but whether I suffered more or less in my walk than perhaps I needed to.
The more we try to think our choice is why God loves us the further we get from scripture.
God loves us first and that is an action that causes us to love him....Amen...
The only thing observation can prove is that we each come at a different time.
...it's brought me so much closer to Him Phaze...so much closer.
Is it just me who gets the feeling that these people who are loud about ET , are really saying unless you believe and become like me (an ET'er) you are going straight to hell ?.
Yea i know they are sincere about it , but their insistance on it is very scary, i find myself asking what is it that causes them not only believe it, but adamantly argue against the very minimum, reasonable proof from the scriptures that it's a lie
...Phaze, it takes a lot more than just once or twice to sit and cry out to God...I can't count the times I cried out to God in pain...that's part of the process, and that's good, and even being disobedient again afterwards...it just means you haven't truly repented yet...so you are still growing and learning...and never stop crying to God Phaze...it is in these moments He is strengthening you...allow yourself to fail, it is o.k. to fail...fall...but fall forward Phaze...always fall forward...God is never going to leave you, no matter how many times you fall....and there will be a day when all your falls turn into steady, strong strides!!!...don't be so hard on yourself. [/color]
Not being hard on myself, I am pointing out that what a human being thinks about where anothers standing with God is, no matter what they "observe" is irrelevant.
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Remember ALL of His promises Phaze...even the one's that may seem wrong...they are still His promises...His justice...His Holiness.
Well, that seems to be the problem, one promise is not negated by another. We hear "God is love but he is also wrath". What the truth is when it comes to God is that He is love and wrath and all of his atrributes all at the same time. If Jesus sent his son on a mission to be savioir of the world, our will, our choices or what attribute you can try to project upon another doesn't change that Jesus will be successful in the mission he was sent to do to the degree of 100%.
We hear people project doom on another by suggesting that Gods wrath remaining on someone is of such a horror, that our imaginations and minds could not even comprehend such madness to be on someone.
Hogwash, God's wrath remains on someone to bring them to him in glory. There is only one purpose for all of Gods attributes, to draw us to him. Saul who became Paul. Yeah, Paul made a choice, willingly, but all this about being independant of God is completely contradicted in that story alone. Saul, the essence of wickedness was destroyed, forever, but what does it mean then since Paul remained after Gods wrath was upon him?
You won't see it until you remove your carnal shell and see all of Gods attributes in perfect harmony acting all at the same time.
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The issue is applying it correctly to scripture which most do not. Most extract the term and use the term apart from it's scriptural application and that is where confusion comes from.
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Would you mind explaining what you mean here...I'm not sure I understand...Thanks.
Sure, Free Will in scripture is not a complete independance from the creator, it is a freedom to choose within Gods plan.
Pr 5:21 For the ways of man [are] before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.
Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.
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And you cannnot make a proper argument that our will is not independant of Him when you truly study the Scripture that support this Phaze...if you're really being honest with yourself about it, it is true...way too much Bible says we have a choice...bottom line.
I have never said we do not have a choice,so your objection does not apply to me.
Having a choice goes along with the verses above. Independance from God is impossible, this does not prevent us from making choices.
We are not independant from God, that is why Jesus will not fail to complete his mission 100%. Don't take your free will apart from scripture and worship it, you will find yourself boasting about your choice.
How are you independant of God if it is not about you? You are not.
Why would even 99% be satsfactory to a supreme being? It's not.
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