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Then let me ask you this. If you rely on your pastor/teacher to tell you what the true meaning of the word is, where did he get his authority? If you were to trace the line of tradition from your paster teacher down to Christ, where would it go? And why are you not a roman Catholic then if you truly believe this is the only way to know the truth?
No. At the moment that any member of the human race believes in Christ, God the Holy Spirit sovereignly bestows on that individual one or more spiritual gifts. To some men He gives the gift of pastor/teacher. Once he has studied and learned after years of academic training, he then begins teaching and he is directly responsible to God for the proper use of his gift. There is no line of succession going back to Christ on earth during His incarnation. The pastors authority comes directly from the Holy Spirit in the here and now.
No. At the moment that any member of the human race believes in Christ, God the Holy Spirit sovereignly bestows on that individual one or more spiritual gifts. To some men He gives the gift of pastor/teacher. Once he has studied and learned after years of academic training, he then begins teaching and he is directly responsible to God for the proper use of his gift. There is no line of succession going back to Christ on earth during His incarnation. The pastors authority comes directly from the Holy Spirit in the here and now.
So my father having Gone through many years of seminary, and having taught me since i was six years old everything that he could about what he had learned, and i having learned things that are not taught in seminary and having far surpassed my father in a knowledge of world religion (including Christianity) and philosophy according to his own words, and having been told that i have the spiritual gift of teaching by many others around me ... what do you have to say about me and my teachings? How do you know if someone has the spiritual gift of teaching? Is it only if it lines up with what you have been taught?
You see, line of succession my friend.
I used to believe nearly exactly the way that you believe as far as i have seen in your posts. However, my conscience could not continue to bare witness of certain teachings and after many years of struggling in my spirit over them, the lord brought me to a place of learning the original teachings of the gospel which were taught in the early church which defy some of the traditional teachings you are speaking about within these threads, namely eternal damnation and full futurism ... Do you have the gift of teaching and discernment, and if you dont have them yourself, then how do you know who does?
No. At the moment that any member of the human race believes in Christ, God the Holy Spirit sovereignly bestows on that individual one or more spiritual gifts. To some men He gives the gift of pastor/teacher. Once he has studied and learned after years of academic training, he then begins teaching and he is directly responsible to God for the proper use of his gift. There is no line of succession going back to Christ on earth during His incarnation. The pastors authority comes directly from the Holy Spirit in the here and now.
I can't believe what i'm reading here. This as got the ordaination of man written all over it then passed on as being the ordaination of the Holy Spirit.
The books of the Bible were all completed before the end of the first century. The letters, the epistles, the Gospels, were all in circulation and being read. They simply were not all assembled into the collection that we have them today. God does things in His time. Not ours.
The Epistle of Barnabas may well have been written by the end of the first century. It's in the Codex Sinaiticus. It's not in our, Catholic, Bibles but I don't believe it's in yours either.
In the Old Testament the books of Tobit, Judith, and Wisdom are generally agreed to predate the first century AD. They are also found in the fourth century Biblical codices I find. They are not in most Protestant Bibles.
So "they were all out there by 100 AD" doesn't really explain what ones you accept and don't accept.
So my father having Gone through many years of seminary, and having taught me since i was six years old everything that he could about what he had learned, and i having learned things that are not taught in seminary and having far surpassed my father in a knowledge of world religion (including Christianity) and philosophy according to his own words, and having been told that i have the spiritual gift of teaching by many others around me ... what do you have to say about me and my teachings? How do you know if someone has the spiritual gift of teaching? Is it only if it lines up with what you have been taught?
What you teach is apostate and is from Satan. You make a mockery of the Cross and make God out to be a liar.
Galatians 1:6-9
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I used to believe nearly exactly the way that you believe as far as i have seen in your posts. However, my conscience could not continue to bare witness of certain teachings and after many years of struggling in my spirit over them, the lord brought me to a place of learning the original teachings of the gospel which were taught in the early church which defy some of the traditional teachings you are speaking about within these threads, namely eternal damnation and full futurism ... Do you have the gift of teaching and discernment, and if you dont have them yourself, then how do you know who does?
Your falling away from the truth was your choice.And now you come with false teachings that everyone will be saved even though they reject Christ.You understand nothing about God.
What you teach is apostate and is from Satan. You make a mockery of the Cross and make God out to be a liar.
Galatians 1:6-9
You know this might be part of why I don't pop in much on the Christian section. I don't know the person you're speaking to here. He seems to be Universalist, I'm not. Granted I have difficulty with the idea of Hell as eternal flesh-burning, but the idea of eternal separation from God in a dark place full of bitterness seems understandable to me. That notwithstanding to state "what you teach is apostate and is from Satan" is just not something I can imagine myself saying to someone. Something can be erroneous or even dangerous without being that. Yes I understand the Biblical basis for talking like that, but sheesh. It's pretty hostile and a conversation stopper.
Then again I suppose one group of oddball heretics condemning other oddball heretics is maybe none of my business. I just don't like the whole "let's find Satan everywhere" stuff.
And I know you both seem to agree my faith is some evil thing. Interestingly many of the early Christians were actually hesitant to say a heresy was "from Hell" as this could mean committing the "eternal sin" if they were wrong. If either of you are indicating Catholicism is apostate and linked to the Devil than, to paraphrase Frank Pembleton, "If my religion's right, you're screwed."
Last edited by Thomas R.; 10-03-2009 at 01:45 AM..
What you teach is apostate and is from Satan. You make a mockery of the Cross and make God out to be a liar.
Galatians 1:6-9
Your falling away from the truth was your choice.And now you come with false teachings that everyone will be saved even though they reject Christ.You understand nothing about God.
You are the one who believes an apostate doctrine. Eternal torture is Roman Catholic invention of the 6th century. You still have yet to accept this FACT ... Or disprove it ... It must really embarrass fundamentalists such as yourself to know the native Greek speaking Christians of the early church almost unanimously agreed on this issue and were believers in Universal reconciliation. That is why the catholic church was never fully able to make the belief heterodoxy ... Because the vast majority of the church fathers believed it and taught it. They would have had to anathematize nearly the entire christian community before the sixth century, and that just wouldn't have looked good for them.
Until you understand Gods loves for ALL his creation ... You will never understand God. You only understand your "high education" ... "Knowledge puffeth up" ... And you are puffy as they come ...
God raises the foolish things of the earth up to confound the wisdom of men.
In spite of all the debate here in these threads on this forum, these are the FACTS ...
FACT #1 ... Universal reconciliation and or apocatastasis were the original teaching of the accepted Gospel in the early church ...
FACT #2 ... The doctrine of Eternal Torture was invented in Rome(Carthage) And was not accepted as the orthodox teaching of the church until the 6th Century, in the dark ages.
FACT #3 ... The doctrine of eternal torture was responsible almost solely for the torture and murder of millions men, woman, and even children throughout the dark ages by deceived "Christians".
FACT #4 ... The truth is coming out and there is nothing any of you can do about it ...
Selah, and praise the living God, who is the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe ... (1 tim 4:10) !
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-03-2009 at 12:13 PM..
You are the one who believes an apostate doctrine. Eternal torture is Roman Catholic invention of the 6th century. You still have yet to accept this FACT ... Or disprove it ... It must really embarrass fundamentalists such as yourself to know the native Greek speaking Christians of the early church almost unanimously agreed on this issue and were believers in Universal reconciliation. That is why the catholic church was never fully able to make the belief heterodoxy ... Because the vast majority of the church fathers believed it and taught it. They would have had to anathematize nearly the entire christian community before the sixth century, and that just wouldn't have looked good for them.
Until you understand Gods loves for ALL his creation ... You will never understand God. You only understand your "high education" ... "Knowledge puffeth up" ... And you are puffy as they come ...
Until you understand that God will not permit His love to compromise His Holiness, it is you who will never understand God.
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God raises the foolish things of the earth up to confound the wisdom of men.
In spite of all the debate here in these threads on this forum, these are the FACTS ...
FACT #1 ... Universal reconciliation and or apocatastasis were the original teaching of the accepted Gospel in the early church ...
Universal reconciliation is indeed true.(2 Cor. 5:18-19) But universal reconciliation is Not universal salvation.
Reconciliation means that the barrier between God and man has been removed by the work of Christ on the Cross in paying the penalty for sin and therefore propitiating or satisfying the demands of divine righteousness and therefore establishing peace between God and man. Christ paid the penalty for all sin that would ever be committed in the human race.
But where the barrier between God and man used to be, there is a volitional issue. Man must make a decision to step over the line where the barrier used to be. (Acts 16:31) ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.''
In 2 Cor. 5:20 Both Paul and Timothy are saying; ''Therefore we are ambassodors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.'' Paul and Timothy were begging the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. Which means they were asking the Corinthians to believe in Christ so that reconciliation could be applied to them for salvation.
Christ purchased the freedom of every person who ever lived or will live. People aren't condemned because of their sins, because Christ purchased their freedom. That's what it's talking about when it says in (2 Peter 2:1) ''denying the Master who bought them.'' Their redemption was purchased on the Cross. Whether they're going to accept that redemption is another issue. Those who accept it are born again, those who don't are still lost.
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FACT #2 ... The doctrine of Eternal Torture was invented in Rome(Carthage) And was not accepted as the orthodox teaching of the church until the 6th Century, in the dark ages.
The doctrine of eternal punishment, of eternal separation is a Biblical doctrine. It was not invented by man.
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FACT #3 ... The doctrine of eternal torture was responsible almost solely for the torture and murder of millions men, woman, and even children throughout the dark ages by deceived "Christians".
The abuses and crimes that have been committed in the name of God must be distinquished from what is taught in the Bible.
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FACT #4 ... The truth is coming out and there is nothing any of you can do about it ...
God is truth. Satan is the father of lies. And we live in the devils world which is under his rule. And Satanic deception is rampant up to the point that God allows it to be. God permits this so that having been tested, those who have been tested will be either on God's side or on Satan's side.
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Selah, and praise the living God, who is the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe ... (1 tim 4:10) !
Salvation is applied only to those who make a decision to believe in Christ. This is the truth that universalism denies.Final answer.
No. At the moment that any member of the human race believes in Christ, God the Holy Spirit sovereignly bestows on that individual one or more spiritual gifts. To some men He gives the gift of pastor/teacher. Once he has studied and learned after years of academic training, he then begins teaching and he is directly responsible to God for the proper use of his gift. There is no line of succession going back to Christ on earth during His incarnation.The pastors authority comes directly from the Holy Spirit in the here and now.
That was not the best way of stating what I was trying to say. I simply meant that there is not an Apostolic line of succession such as the Roman Catholic church teaches.
Whenever at any time in the dispensation of the Church, the Holy Spirit bestows the gift of pastor/teacher on a man who has believed in Christ for salvation, that pastor is directly responsible to God for how he uses that gift. If he fails to feed the flock that God has entrusted to him for spiritual growth, that pastor will answer to God.
And also, the local Church is not to be confused with the true church which consists of the body of believers in Christ.
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