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Old 10-31-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,012 posts, read 29,724,589 times
Reputation: 11309

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I am posting it in the Christianity forum because I don't want this to get invaded by the Jew-hating, Christian-hating, extra-hot sauce, Kung-fu krowd

There is this protestant damsel, one of Tony's romantic connections who lives kind of an hour from my location. She never speaks to me a lot, solely for the fact that she abhors catholics, the rituals and the like.

But she immediately buzzed me last night and I ended up talking to her for like an hour. This was an intense debate, mind you and neither of us wanted to give up. Sort of the same case when I run into protestants, starting from my growing up days back in India

Finally, she quoted genesis about how God is a jealous God, from Moses' first commandment. And I was clearly issuing my doubts that my extremely righteous hindu friends, some of them who went to school with me from kindergarten and are still righteous in their lives simply cannot go to hell. I was not even saying they are not going to hell, I expressed my doubts in theology.

And I sounded off that the word jealous has been lost in translation down the ages from the torah, the septuagint, the vulgate and the million english translations.

Basically, jealousy on human terms is not one one can associate at the level of God.

I told her I will research and get back in 24 hours. If I lose the bet, I'm buying her lunch. But I've never lost a theological debate and it looks like I might lose this one. I did some Torah hunting and it's all getting translated as jealous but I am not giving up, coz I have read several Bibles which omit the word jealous. Why?

My catechism teacher said that too, back in the day, that the translation we have today is WAY OFF. I'm sure he wasn't bluffing.

How do I win this bet? Help me.

Here's the quoted text from the Torah and its translation:
5 Lo-tishtachaveh lahem velo ta'ovdem ki anochi HASHEM Elokeicha El kana poked avon avot al-banim al-shileshim ve'al-ribe'im leson'ai.you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, HASHEM your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
I am posting it in the Christianity forum because I don't want this to get invaded by the Jew-hating, Christian-hating, extra-hot sauce, Kung-fu krowd

There is this protestant damsel, one of Tony's romantic connections who lives kind of an hour from my location. She never speaks to me a lot, solely for the fact that she abhors catholics, the rituals and the like.

But she immediately buzzed me last night and I ended up talking to her for like an hour. This was an intense debate, mind you and neither of us wanted to give up. Sort of the same case when I run into protestants, starting from my growing up days back in India

Finally, she quoted genesis about how God is a jealous God, from Moses' first commandment. And I was clearly issuing my doubts that my extremely righteous hindu friends, some of them who went to school with me from kindergarten and are still righteous in their lives simply cannot go to hell. I was not even saying they are not going to hell, I expressed my doubts in theology.

And I sounded off that the word jealous has been lost in translation down the ages from the torah, the septuagint, the vulgate and the million english translations.

Basically, jealousy on human terms is not one one can associate at the level of God.

I told her I will research and get back in 24 hours. If I lose the bet, I'm buying her lunch. But I've never lost a theological debate and it looks like I might lose this one. I did some Torah hunting and it's all getting translated as jealous but I am not giving up, coz I have read several Bibles which omit the word jealous. Why?

My catechism teacher said that too, back in the day, that the translation we have today is WAY OFF. I'm sure he wasn't bluffing.

How do I win this bet? Help me.

Here's the quoted text from the Torah and its translation:
5 Lo-tishtachaveh lahem velo ta'ovdem ki anochi HASHEM Elokeicha El kana poked avon avot al-banim al-shileshim ve'al-ribe'im leson'ai.you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, HASHEM your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
This may not help with the actual translation but perhaps it will help you nonetheless.

I would read Nehemiah.. Ezra is said to have rewritten the book of Genesis from his own memory, memory of other priests, and the remains of the torn original... He was doing that just after the return from Babylonia and during the rebuilding of the temple but many opposed the rebuilding of the temple.

It is my belief that Ezra, as learned as he was, took some liberty with the rewriting the books because of trying to convince others that the temple needed to be rebuilt. Also it is said that at this time the books were written in Aramaic from the ancient language.. So I believe that explains alot of inconsistencies. Ezra definitely had an agenda...

Since God does things for us and not that he needs them I would assume that the definition of Jealous here is: solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something.. For example: The American people are jealous of their freedom.
Not the envious retribution we think of as humans.

IMHO
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,341,500 times
Reputation: 1509
no doubt you can theologically run circles around me.
but you peeked my curiosity.

according at least to the "New Jerome Bible Commentary",
"impassioned" is a better translation.

That's about as far as I can go. The rest is up to you.
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:29 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 4,104,406 times
Reputation: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Not the envious retribution we think of as humans.
well lets read and think about it a moment
"am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

I dont know , but it sure sounds a LOT like some good old retribution to me...
I mean going after the children to the 4th generation?

Not even my most pissed-off ex-girlfriend is that bad....,
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
well lets read and think about it a moment
"am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

I dont know , but it sure sounds a LOT like some good old retribution to me...
I mean going after the children to the 4th generation?

Not even my most pissed-off ex-girlfriend is that bad....,
True but I think if you compare it to other verses you will see that the implication is that the son will follow the father and commit the same sins if the hate of God is allowed to continue..

Ezekiel 18:14 "Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise."

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

1 Kings 15:3 He walked in all the sins of his father which he had committed before him; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, like the heart of his father David.

So I think that God is explaining that sins repeat in generations because the sins are copied not that if the 4th generation hasn't sinned that they will be punished for the 1st generation's sins.

I know that my great grandmother had her first child at 16, my grandmother was 17, my mother was 16, and I was 17... so the sin seems to have trickled down so that we all sinned but it was a result of a change not having taken place somewhere in that line. Now my daughter turns 18 next year and I hope that I have made a significant change in the ways of our family so that she will not fall victim to the sins of the previous generation. That has been my goal anyway.
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:31 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 4,104,406 times
Reputation: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
the implication is that the son will follow the father and commit the same sins if the hate of God is allowed to continue..
well,,again lets take a look at the statement the Bible makes...

"...a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"


The use of the term "visiting" makes it seem a lot more involved that just God sitting back and watching kids screw up like their old man.

"Visiting" is an active word,
its all about God taking action, not just sitting back and witnessing, but taking initiative.

In other words this verse is clealry saying that God "goes after" the children because of the sins of their great-great, even great-great-great grand fathers.


This my friends...is real hardcore jealousy .
Wrath of God stuff.

In human terms, the only thing we have close to this type of overindulgent emotionalism is the hate that can exist between a ex-husband and ex-wife....
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Old 10-31-2009, 02:03 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,580 posts, read 6,305,053 times
Reputation: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
I am posting it in the Christianity forum because I don't want this to get invaded by the Jew-hating, Christian-hating, extra-hot sauce, Kung-fu krowd

There is this protestant damsel, one of Tony's romantic connections who lives kind of an hour from my location. She never speaks to me a lot, solely for the fact that she abhors catholics, the rituals and the like.

But she immediately buzzed me last night and I ended up talking to her for like an hour. This was an intense debate, mind you and neither of us wanted to give up. Sort of the same case when I run into protestants, starting from my growing up days back in India

Finally, she quoted genesis about how God is a jealous God, from Moses' first commandment. And I was clearly issuing my doubts that my extremely righteous hindu friends, some of them who went to school with me from kindergarten and are still righteous in their lives simply cannot go to hell. I was not even saying they are not going to hell, I expressed my doubts in theology.

And I sounded off that the word jealous has been lost in translation down the ages from the torah, the septuagint, the vulgate and the million english translations.

Basically, jealousy on human terms is not one one can associate at the level of God.

I told her I will research and get back in 24 hours. If I lose the bet, I'm buying her lunch. But I've never lost a theological debate and it looks like I might lose this one. I did some Torah hunting and it's all getting translated as jealous but I am not giving up, coz I have read several Bibles which omit the word jealous. Why?

My catechism teacher said that too, back in the day, that the translation we have today is WAY OFF. I'm sure he wasn't bluffing.

How do I win this bet? Help me.

Here's the quoted text from the Torah and its translation:
5 Lo-tishtachaveh lahem velo ta'ovdem ki anochi HASHEM Elokeicha El kana poked avon avot al-banim al-shileshim ve'al-ribe'im leson'ai.you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, HASHEM your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

The Hebrew word is qin’ah means to be jealous, to be envious, or to be filled with zeal. The root is from a word that means “to become red,” as in a person’s face turning red when angry. It is also associated with fire. When you get angry.

The Greek word is zelos. It literally means “heat” and is translated as jealousy, envy or zeal. Jealousy means “vigilantly guarding your possession. It is the desire to hold on to what is yours for your own personal use.

God declares that He is a jealous God. So, you have to understand why the scriptures is saying that God is a jealous God, so you would have to look at the different scriptures.

Here are some scriptures, Nahum 1:2, Psalms 24:1, Psalms 78:58-59 - the people movd God to jealously by carving an image of idols and others.

God chose Israel as His chosen people, He called them His bride. So, He considers Himself the husband of Israel. So, that is where the jealously comes from, His jealously over her( Israel )to worship no other idol gods.

Here are some scriptures showing the relationship with God and His people considering Him being a husband if you don't know. Isa 54:5, Jer 3:14, and Christ is married to His church 2 Co 11:2

God is not using jealous as you or I would. He is saying that He will not tolerate one of His creation worshipping or bowing down to a God other than Him.

Hosea takes this metaphor and makes it positive, as he compares God’s relationship with Israel in the imagery of a marriage. The basis is love, and jealousy is a way to describe the love that a husband has for a wife who is unfaithful and works as a prostitute. This jealousy is one that hurts because of the unfaithfulness of the wife (Israel) in a relationship in which she had pledged herself to her husband who had loved and cared for her (God). So when biblical writers apply this term to God, they are affirming that He, as Creator and Deliverer, is the only God worthy of our worship.
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
The Hebrew word is qin’ah means to be jealous, to be envious, or to be filled with zeal. The root is from a word that means “to become red,” as in a person’s face turning red when angry. It is also associated with fire. When you get angry.

The Greek word is zelos. It literally means “heat” and is translated as jealousy, envy or zeal. Jealousy means “vigilantly guarding your possession. It is the desire to hold on to what is yours for your own personal use.

God declares that He is a jealous God. So, you have to understand why the scriptures is saying that God is a jealous God, so you would have to look at the different scriptures.

Here are some scriptures, Nahum 1:2, Psalms 24:1, Psalms 78:58-59 - the people movd God to jealously by carving an image of idols and others.

God chose Israel as His chosen people, He called them His bride. So, He considers Himself the husband of Israel. So, that is where the jealously comes from, His jealously over her( Israel )to worship no other idol gods.

Here are some scriptures showing the relationship with God and His people considering Him being a husband if you don't know. Isa 54:5, Jer 3:14, and Christ is married to His church 2 Co 11:2

God is not using jealous as you or I would. He is saying that He will not tolerate one of His creation worshipping or bowing down to a God other than Him.

Hosea takes this metaphor and makes it positive, as he compares God’s relationship with Israel in the imagery of a marriage. The basis is love, and jealousy is a way to describe the love that a husband has for a wife who is unfaithful and works as a prostitute. This jealousy is one that hurts because of the unfaithfulness of the wife (Israel) in a relationship in which she had pledged herself to her husband who had loved and cared for her (God). So when biblical writers apply this term to God, they are affirming that He, as Creator and Deliverer, is the only God worthy of our worship.
TAKE NOTE: Miss Shawn and I .... AGREE.. are pigs flying *looks around*.. LOL

Good post!
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:51 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,580 posts, read 6,305,053 times
Reputation: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
TAKE NOTE: Miss Shawn and I .... AGREE.. are pigs flying *looks around*.. LOL

Good post!
Thank You
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:21 AM
 
436 posts, read 1,174,408 times
Reputation: 335
Nice thread. Lol. I like it. But just some advise, winning a debate is not as important as seeking the truth. If our purpose in searching scriptures is proving our point or what we are convinced of is the right way, then we are on a very dangerous ground, for by doing this we are infact playing god. We are really just using scripture, and in this way you can make scripture say what you want it to say. Now will that be the truth? Think about it. That is why there so many denominations, everyone pushing their version of the truth. Be careful sister, it's easy to see and hear just what you want to see and hear.... and end up missing what He says.
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