U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-14-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,825,033 times
Reputation: 1724

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

1 John 5:7.

He that believeth on the Son of God, hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made Him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave His Son.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He that hath the Son, hath life; and he that hath not the Son, hath not life.

1 John 5:10-12.
The last half 1 John 5:7 has been omitted from modern bible because it is a clear interpolation by later translators and does not belong..

Here is the KJV with verse 8: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now read the NIV with verse 8: For there are three that testify:the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

The italicized words in the KJV were added later...
KJVonly.org has this to say:
"This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence."
THE TEXTUAL PROBLEM IN 1 JOHN 5:7-8

As for 1 John 5:10-12... not sure why you think it applies to the topic of the thread.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-14-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,825,033 times
Reputation: 1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who reject the Deity of Christ, use John 10:34 ''Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said ,you are gods'?, as an argument to support their rejection. This is a failure on their part to understand the meaning of the passage.

In ancient Israel, judges and magistrates, people who were in authority, were called gods. Not in the sense of deity, but only as a designation of authority.

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

quote
34-36 Is it not written in your law- in PS. 83:6, respecting Judges or magistrates.

Ye are gods - being the official representatives and commissioned agents of God.
unquote

Christ was saying to them, 'If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God.'


Here you prove that Jesus did not call himself God but found nothing wrong with calling humans gods. In fact you prove that Jesus himself knew that saying he is the son of God is nothing more than saying humans are gods...

Quote:
Jesus Christ IS God, co-equal with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit.

During His first Advent on earth, during His temptations in the desert, Christ was tempted by Satan to use His own Deity to turn stones into bread. He was being tempted to use His own Deity independantly of the Fathers will, instead of depending on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit as the Father's plan called for. (Matt. 4:3)

One wonders why people who reject the fact that Jesus Christ is God, don't understand that the title 'Son of God' refers to His Deity, and that His title 'Son of Man' refers to his humanity.

Here is the Trinity in Isa. 48:16 ''Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now the Lord God (Adonai Elohim) and His Spirit have sent me.''

This is Jesus Christ speaking.

quote
(48:16) This is one of the clearest of the O.T. intimations of the Trinity. For the speaker here is not the prophet but the LORD Himself.
unquote

(Footnote from The New Scofield Reference Bible, p.755)
And then you completely contradict yourself and ignore what you have proven above.. or do you think Jesus was afraid he would be killed so he explained away his claim to deity/blasphemy in order to live another day?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 10:39 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,736,852 times
Reputation: 335
The group is up early this morning...LOL

Here are a few articles I found concerning the terms "logos" and "rhema" that was discussed yesterday and it makes for some good reading. A little long in the tooth, but the articles are short:

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/278-The_Logos_Clark.pdf (broken link)

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/021a-Logology.pdf (broken link)


Alabama
Mississippi St.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,187,683 times
Reputation: 850
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The last half 1 John 5:7 has been omitted from modern bible because it is a clear interpolation by later translators and does not belong..
I do not use the modern translations. I use the King James and the King James 1611 Versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonj
As for 1 John 5:10-12... not sure why you think it applies to the topic of the thread.
...Because if we receive the witness of God, we receive His Testimony of His Son, Jesus Christ...the Word of God, manifeste into flesh...fully God and fully man...

...Because God made a true Christian one of His sons, and they are then able to live their life through Christ Who dwells in them. And because the Father dwells in Christ Jesus, He also dwells in the true Christian! Jesus said, "If a man love me, He will keep My Commandments: and My Father will love him, and He will come unto him, and make abode with him" (John 14:23).

It is in this union...God the Father dwelling in Christ; Christ Jesus, the Son of God, dwelling in the true Christian...that the true Christian, as a son of God, are able to live as the express image of Jesus Christ on this earth! "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye [the true Christian] are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power" (Colossians 2:9-10).

Jesus prayed that we would come into this unity in Him. He said: "That they, [true Christian's] all may be one; as Thou, Father, are in Me, and I in Thee, that they, [a true Christian] also may be one in US..." (John 17:21).

Jesus was not talking about the unity of the Church in this verse. He was praying that true believing, repentant, obedient Christians would be one in THEM. "I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [true Christians] may be made perfect in one...: (John 17:23). In Jesus Christ, dwells all the fullness of the Godhead. Therefore, since Jesus Christ dwells in a true Christian, the Godhead...Father, Son [Jesus], and Holy Sprit...dwells in the true Christian..."...that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me [Jesus], and hast loved them [the true Christian], as Thou hast loved Me" (John 7:23). When one comes into this close union with Jesus Christ, in which they CONTINUALLY ABIDE in Him, in which they KNOW the fullness of the Godhead is in Him and is in them, the world will sit up and take notice! They will KNOW that Jesus Christ was sent by God, and they will KNOW that just as God the Father loved His Son, Jesus Christ, He loves them [the true believing, repentant, obedient Christian].

As a son of God, [a true believing, repentant, obedient Christian], you have been given everything you need to walk, talk, and live your life as Jesus did in ONE HUNDRED PERCENT VICTORY! You have been given "all things that pertain unto life and godliness!" Praise be to God. Amen.


...Because it is relevant and crucial to the understanding of this topic.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:40 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 14,895,223 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who reject the Deity of Christ, use John 10:34 ''Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said ,you are gods'?, as an argument to support their rejection. This is a failure on their part to understand the meaning of the passage.

In ancient Israel, judges and magistrates, people who were in authority, were called gods. Not in the sense of deity, but only as a designation of authority.

From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

quote
34-36 Is it not written in your law- in PS. 83:6, respecting Judges or magistrates.

Ye are gods - being the official representatives and commissioned agents of God.
unquote

Christ was saying to them, 'If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God.'

Jesus Christ IS God, co-equal with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit.

During His first Advent on earth, during His temptations in the desert, Christ was tempted by Satan to use His own Deity to turn stones into bread. He was being tempted to use His own Deity independantly of the Fathers will, instead of depending on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit as the Father's plan called for. (Matt. 4:3)

One wonders why people who reject the fact that Jesus Christ is God, don't understand that the title 'Son of God' refers to His Deity, and that His title 'Son of Man' refers to his humanity.

Here is the Trinity in Isa. 48:16 ''Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now the Lord God (Adonai Elohim) and His Spirit have sent me.''

This is Jesus Christ speaking.

quote
(48:16) This is one of the clearest of the O.T. intimations of the Trinity. For the speaker here is not the prophet but the LORD Himself.
unquote

(Footnote from The New Scofield Reference Bible, p.755)
Sorry Mike, but your post does not square with the facts.
Jesus said in John 10:34 that "did I not say ye are gods" to prove that He was "God" in the very same respect as they are. They were subjectors of Israel to the law and Christ was subjector of Israel to God. It is in that sense Christ quoted John 10:34.

It is the only reason that makes sense.

If I ate half a large pizza and a group of people who are known to be overeaters called me a pig, and somehow I found a scripture that says about them: Did I not say ye are pigs? I would be telling them, don't call me a pig when after all you are all pigs too!

So in that same sense, Christ is God in the sense that they are Gods.
I realize you can't handle the truth but you can't gainsay these facts.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,825,033 times
Reputation: 1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I do not use the modern translations. I use the King James and the King James 1611 Versions.
Yet the kjvonly.org website agrees that it is not found in the original manuscripts that we are privy to.. you may continue in your ignorance or you can research for yourself..but as for proving anything using that verse even supporters of the KJV will tell you that verse is not valid.

Quote:
...Because if we receive the witness of God, we receive His Testimony of His Son, Jesus Christ...the Word of God, manifeste into flesh...fully God and fully man...
Yet the verses you reference say nothing of the sort.. you interject that rhetoric.

Quote:
...Because God made a true Christian one of His sons, and they are then able to live their life through Christ Who dwells in them. And because the Father dwells in Christ Jesus, He also dwells in the true Christian! Jesus said, "If a man love me, He will keep My Commandments: and My Father will love him, and He will come unto him, and make abode with him" (John 14:23).
Then Christ is the son of God and the christian is the son of God making them brothers not father and son. You are stating that Christ then becomes the christian's father not his brother...

Quote:
It is in this union...God the Father dwelling in Christ; Christ Jesus, the Son of God, dwelling in the true Christian...that the true Christian, as a son of God, are able to live as the express image of Jesus Christ on this earth! "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye [the true Christian] are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power" (Colossians 2:9-10).
It is clear here that Jesus is resurrected at this time and is full of the divine properties of God.. This cannot apply to his life on earth now can it?

Quote:
Jesus prayed that we would come into this unity in Him. He said: "That they, [true Christian's] all may be one; as Thou, Father, are in Me, and I in Thee, that they, [a true Christian] also may be one in US..." (John 17:21).
Yes so you see that Jesus' relationship with the father can also be our relationship with the father .. therefore using your logic.. we are also God.

Quote:
Jesus was not talking about the unity of the Church in this verse. He was praying that true believing, repentant, obedient Christians would be one in THEM. "I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [true Christians] may be made perfect in one...: (John 17:23). In Jesus Christ, dwells all the fullness of the Godhead. Therefore, since Jesus Christ dwells in a true Christian, the Godhead...Father, Son [Jesus], and Holy Sprit...dwells in the true Christian..."...that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me [Jesus], and hast loved them [the true Christian], as Thou hast loved Me" (John 7:23). When one comes into this close union with Jesus Christ, in which they CONTINUALLY ABIDE in Him, in which they KNOW the fullness of the Godhead is in Him and is in them, the world will sit up and take notice! They will KNOW that Jesus Christ was sent by God, and they will KNOW that just as God the Father loved His Son, Jesus Christ, He loves them [the true believing, repentant, obedient Christian].
Again these are your thoughts and are not shown in scripture. Jesus prays for several different groups of people in John 17.. not just the "true christians."

Quote:
As a son of God, [a true believing, repentant, obedient Christian], you have been given everything you need to walk, talk, and live your life as Jesus did in ONE HUNDRED PERCENT VICTORY! You have been given "all things that pertain unto life and godliness!" Praise be to God. Amen.
True.. and that is the same as being a Son of God.. the capital "S" does not imply that Jesus is God himself nor does the lack of the captal "s" imply that we as sons of God are not God himself.


Quote:
...Because it is relevant and crucial to the understanding of this topic.
Thanks for the clarification there. It is hard to understand where you are going with something when you only show the verse and nothing else because there have been several points made in this thread.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:59 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
Reputation: 14407
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post


Here you prove that Jesus did not call himself God but found nothing wrong with calling humans gods. In fact you prove that Jesus himself knew that saying he is the son of God is nothing more than saying humans are gods...

And then you completely contradict yourself and ignore what you have proven above.. or do you think Jesus was afraid he would be killed so he explained away his claim to deity/blasphemy in order to live another day?
There is no contradiction. Simply take the time to understand the meaning of what Christ was saying in John 10:24.

Probe Answers Our E-Mail: You Are Gods

Did Jesus deny his divinity when he said 'You are gods'?

Did Jesus advocate that man could become God in John 10:34?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:59 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,736,852 times
Reputation: 335
Here are my thoughts on Jon 10:34-37:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
Joh 10:36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say--Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
Joh 10:37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;
Joh 10:38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me is the Father, and I in Him.'

Jesus was telling the scribes that they are "gods" - or judges - concerning the law, and have been given this authority, by God. Should these judges not believe Jesus' words, they are to judge Him by Jehovah's standards:

Lev 19:15 You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment; you shall not respect the person of the poor, nor favor the person of the mighty; but in righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.

In so judging, Jesus tells them that the divine miracles He performs (raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, etc.) will testify to His claim as the Son of God:

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me?

Here are some of the works that Jesus showed the Jews:

Mat 11:4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Having gone, declare to John the things that ye hear and see,
Mat 11:5 blind receive sight, and lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear, dead are raised, and poor have good news proclaimed,

The Jews understood Jesus' claim correctly, but they would not judge correctly, even though the works that Jesus performed gave clear testimony to His claims. This is why Jesus chastised them. Not only did these judges not believe His claims, but they refused to judge righteously, given the evidence before them. Consequently, these unrighteous judges tried harder to stop Him:

Joh 10:39 Therefore were they seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 6,024,768 times
Reputation: 424
It needs to be emphasized that Daniel 7:13-14 does not depict the Second Coming; rather, it depicts Jesus’ enthronement at AD 30:

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of Man is not coming to the earth in vs. 13-14. He is coming to the throne of God in heaven to receive worldwide authority (cf. Acts 7:55-56; Eph. 1:19-21; Rev. 12:1-5).

Regarding this, R. T. France writes: “In Dan 7:13-14 this ‘son of man’ comes before God to be enthroned as king. There is nothing in the imagery of Daniel to suggest a coming to earth, as Christian interpretation has traditionally found in these passages; he comes in the clouds of heaven to God.”

Gary DeMar concurs:
In Revelation, the Son of Man is shown with the characteristics of the Ancient of Days (i.e., white hair, symbolic of the eternality of the Ancient of Days; Dan. 7:9; Rev. 1:14); Jesus is both God and Man.

In Revelation, we are told that God “is to come” (Rev. 4:8). This coming of God is shown in the coming of Jesus, the Word of God, in Revelation 19:11-21 (cf. Rev. 1:4-8).

To blatantly disregard this, and hundreds of other texts that simply state the deity of Jesus is beyond undertstanding, and can only be attributed to the works of the flesh, and the lack of the spirit.

Not one of you have disproved that Christ is not God, but in return all of you have shown blindness, and lack of spiritual discernment of the scripture. The consistent application of verse study, is meager, and most of all, eisegetical in all ways, and is in complete contradiction to the overall message to the entire canon.

Kudos to you Mike and others for standing up for our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Sources: Duncan Mckenzie, Gary Demar, and RC Sproul
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,825,033 times
Reputation: 1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It needs to be emphasized that Daniel 7:13-14 does not depict the Second Coming; rather, it depicts Jesus’ enthronement at AD 30:

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of Man is not coming to the earth in vs. 13-14. He is coming to the throne of God in heaven to receive worldwide authority (cf. Acts 7:55-56; Eph. 1:19-21; Rev. 12:1-5).

Regarding this, R. T. France writes: “In Dan 7:13-14 this ‘son of man’ comes before God to be enthroned as king. There is nothing in the imagery of Daniel to suggest a coming to earth, as Christian interpretation has traditionally found in these passages; he comes in the clouds of heaven to God.”

Gary DeMar concurs:
In Revelation, the Son of Man is shown with the characteristics of the Ancient of Days (i.e., white hair, symbolic of the eternality of the Ancient of Days; Dan. 7:9; Rev. 1:14); Jesus is both God and Man.

In Revelation, we are told that God “is to come” (Rev. 4:8). This coming of God is shown in the coming of Jesus, the Word of God, in Revelation 19:11-21 (cf. Rev. 1:4-8).

To blatantly disregard this, and hundreds of other texts that simply state the deity of Jesus is beyond undertstanding, and can only be attributed to the works of the flesh, and the lack of the spirit.

Not one of you have disproved that Christ is not God, but in return all of you have shown blindness, and lack of spiritual discernment of the scripture. The consistent application of verse study, is meager, and most of all, eisegetical in all ways, and is in complete contradiction to the overall message to the entire canon.

Kudos to you Mike and others for standing up for our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Pray tell the message of the entire cannon... for the edification of we who lack spiritual discernment...
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2022, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top