Jesus Christ is Eternal God (myth, Pilate, theist, Apostle Paul)
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It is through the word that souls are brought to believe on Christ, and it is for this end that Christ appointed the Scriptures to be written...like-minded...the mind of Christ...together, as one, in Him.
When you read these versus, what do they mean to you?:
Rom 4:4 Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
If one believes that he is righteous because of what he does, then this is true of him...in other words, his payment isn't by grace but his payment is paid as a debt that is owed to him for his works...his reward is not credited as a gift of grace through faith in God...very sad...no faith here.
Abraham had nothing to boast of...being saved by grace, through faith...he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Believers are justified by faith.
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Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm
Rom 4:5 But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
This "one" does not trust his works for acceptance with God...but believes and trusts in the mercy of Him who justifies sinners who come to him penitent and believing. His faith is the ground of his acceptance with God. By faith he clings to Christ, the Savior.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 11-14-2009 at 03:05 PM..
When you read these versus, what do they mean to you?:
Rom 4:4 Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I love these verses .. more appropriate for the "everyone who doesn't follow the commandments to the letter is bound for hell" thread.. but nonetheless.. it speaks volumes about the purpose of the new covenant which is one of grace. I would rather be under grace then under the debt of the law!
God is certainly good.
Alabama.. I have a question for you regarding the statement: "Jesus is Eternal God." Do you think this is an accurate representation of this concept:
God Almighty is the umbrella... under the umbrella of God are the three persons.. The Father, Jesus, The holy spirit..
Yet they are all represented by God and represent God.. is that what people mean by there are three that come together under the one.. Almighty God?
Clark (no longer living) is like that. He does not hold to universal reconciliation like I do (I can't figure out why others do not ) but he does give some very good historical information on the term "logos" that I found fascinating and wanted to share with you.
I think I agree with you that the the message Jesus presents to us is from the Father. But because the Father and Son are One, the words are also attributed to Christ as the very "logos" of God. At least that's how I interpret it. I do respect your views regarding this issue. Actually, I forgot what we are in disagreement about...LOL, at least as it pertains to how the term "logos" is used in scriptures. The article you posted gave me some other matters of faith to think over that I've struggled with. Thanks for the link.
I missed this post of yours.. I did find things of value in both links you provided so thanks for posting them. Another problem is that I think the trinity causes more confusion than it actually clears up. And I don't think God intended to send his son to clear up confusion, reveal mysteries, and speak the words of God if it all ended up in more confusion.
The way I see it.. there is nothing in the bible that separates the Holy Spirit from God. It seems that the Holy Spirit is not separate from God but more like tentacles that are able to grab us here on earth to steer us clear of the obstacles of humanity. I picture God Almighty as the huge octupus head and his tentacles (the holy spirit) extend to us on earth. Some people grab onto the tentacles and are guided by them. Others simply let the tentacles follow them instead (resulting in a less than fulfilling life). Jesus not only let the tentacles lead him but relied solely on the tentacle to the point where the tentacle was embedded in his very being.
Now that is the weirdest analogy I have ever used and in writing it I had to chuckle... but to me it makes sense that the holy spirit is an extension of God and not a separate person. So when I see that Christ also used the holy spirit and advised us to use the spirit of God in the same way.. then I must conclude that although Jesus was more complete in his divinity that we also can make use of that same divinity..
I'm afraid that none of that made sense... LOL I'm still giggling (like a school girl ) over the picture of God as an octupus!
THis is the deal....since man's exegesis isn't good enough...I will, from now on, just provide the Holy Word of God for you all...because those that adhere to Jesus not being God, is blasphemy. All you have to do is google my words and see if they are mine or not.
I will let God exegete, because you all can't.
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."
Hebrew 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
I thought only God can purge the sins...it appears Christ is doing that here
Hebrew 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Above a referrence to Psalm 2
Hebrew 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Angels worship Christ, maybe you should too.
Hebrew 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Who got the sceptre? Christ...unto the Son...thy Throne, O God.
Christ's throne...Christ is God.
Hebrew 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Christ annointed...Christ God.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Still speaking of Christ here...subject hasn't changed...and what did He do?
He laid the foundation of the Earth. That's right....Christ did.
Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Wait a minute...I thought God was the only Savior?
Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Rev 2:23 ....and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
John 21:17 Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.
Collosians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Hundreds if not thousand more, against your one or two verses?
Now I am assuming since there are typos in this post that these are your words.. so I will gladly respond.
Appearances can be deceiving.... I have stated plainly that I don't have it all figured out.. I do, however, believe I have a firm grasp on the concept of Jesus and his relationship to his God.. who is also my God.
You are kidding right? I have proven over and over again that I am exegetical, and whenever I post another man or woman's work....I credit them. Unlike you all, as I have continuously googled all of your words, and have found repeatedly that you are all guilty of the same things, yet I don't call you out, why, cuz it's research to me.
Try reading the posts before you reply back to them...it helps your case.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Why was the Son presented to God in Daniel?
I already answered that. Just because you didn't like my answer does not mean "No one can answer this question."
Christ is the image of God (2 Cor.4:4).
When Christ took a coin and asked whose image is this on the coin, they said Cesar (cf Matthew 22:20,21) . Now was that image literally Cesar? No. That image represented the power Caesar had.
Likewise, Christ being the image of God does not mean He is THAT God. But He represents all the authority God has and which God gave to Christ until . . . (1 Cor.15:24).
So Christ in Revelation is the image of the vision Daniel had of God. God does not literally have hair and grey at that! God is not a man. "God no one has ever seen. The Son who is in the bosom of the Father unfolds Him."
Eisegesis..based on what scripture? Exegete please?
If your boss is the president of the company is he also the president of the USA? nope.. if you hold the same title and attributes of the president of the USA does that mean you are the president of the USA? nope. If the vice president can exercise the authority of the president does that mean he IS the president? I think you are confused. As to the rest of your post:
New age jargon...this is an exegete....refrain from 21st century application of a ancient prophecy.
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Doesn't this correspond to Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Yes! You are correct! Praise the Lord!
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Notice that in Daniel the thrones are cast down (the thrones of Christ and the saints) and the Ancient of Days (God) sits down. Who judges and opens the books in Revelation? 20: 11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Daniel 7 is about the ascension...and so is Revelation 20..the beginning of the 1000 years.
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Rev. 5:6-7
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Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Jesus takes the scroll from God who sits on the throne... God is the ancient of days.. not Jesus.
Where does it say He takes the scroll from God? It is He who is in the Center of the Throne...It is He who Sits on the throne...all the elders and angels worship Christ...why can't you?
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Christ sitting on the same throne with God...hmmmm...tww parts one God.
Zech 6:12-13 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
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We see also in Revelation that the saints are given white robes. This all symbolizes purity.
Yes!
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See in Eph. 6:17 that the sword is the word of God..."Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."
Therefore the sword of Jesus is the WORD of God.
That last part you underlined: Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and
Do you not see that the one sitting on the throne and the Lamb are two different people? That God is on the throne and the Lamb is not?
Christ is at the CENTER of the throne.....one throne...One God...Christ.
Collosians 21:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Why can't you grasp this....?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-14-2009 at 04:43 PM..
You are kidding right? I have proven over and over again that I am exegetical, and whenever I post another man or woman's work....I credit them. Unlike you all, as I have continuously googled all of your words, and have found repeatedly that you are all guilty of the same things, yet I don't call you out, why, cuz it's research to me.
Try reading the posts before you reply back to them...it helps your case.
IF I ever use another person's words without giving a link I give you my full and absolute permission to call me out... I would welcome it!
It is interesting to me that you take the time to google "all of your words."
I noticed also that you didn't respond to the rest of the post but just the first line... that in itself speaks volumes.
Anyway.. let us resume our discussion.
Your basis is that John 1 expressely states that Jesus is God because the Word is God... I have refuted that by showing you other places where the word of God is the sword of the spirit. Since Jesus has the spirit like you and I do.. then how is it that you can say he is the Word?
IF I ever use another person's words without giving a link I give you my full and absolute permission to call me out... I would welcome it!
It is interesting to me that you take the time to google "all of your words."
I noticed also that you didn't respond to the rest of the post but just the first line... that in itself speaks volumes.
Anyway.. let us resume our discussion.
Your basis is that John 1 expressely states that Jesus is God because the Word is God... I have refuted that by showing you other places where the word of God is the sword of the spirit. Since Jesus has the spirit like you and I do.. then how is it that you can say he is the Word?
I google people's words often..but I don't ever recall yours...reason being that many times I have been in debates and seen disuniformity in the posts, hence I googled their words...anyway...I respect you, but this is debate, and it can get pretty ugly sometimes, but I still love you like a sister, even though you don't believe Christ as Deity...but I am told to love all.......belivers and not. Anyway.....back to topic...
Sorry.. which post were you referring to? I will look back.....we sometimes get lost in the posts, but lately I have been making a point here and other forums to focus on one thought, and attempt to stay on track...it seems pretty loose around City Data, and the topic gets really lost at times....blah blah blah
Ok John 1.....because the word became flesh...
Collosians 21:9 For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Here are more verses which proclaim the Deity of Christ.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
This next to last verse in 1 John agrees with the beginning verse of the Epistle.
1 John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life--2) and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life , which was with the Father and was manifested to us.
Jesus Christ is identified as the Word of Life (the Word of God) Who was manifested in the flesh. Compare with John 1:14.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father, full of grace and truth.
Now compare John 1:14 with John 3:16.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...''
As can be seen from a comparison of 1 John 1:1, John 1:14, and John 3:16, Jesus Christ is identified as the Word who became flesh and is identified also in both John 1:14 and in John 3:16 as the only begotten Son.
Now relate everything back to John 1:1-5
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, (Jesus Christ-as established in 1 John 1:1, John 1:14, and John 3:16), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things came into being by Him. (The actual act of creation of the universe was done by Jesus Christ), and apart from Him nothing came into being. 4) In Him was life,(1 John 5:20, 1 John 1:1), and the life was the light of men. 5) And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The Gospel of John emphasizes the Deity of Christ.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-14-2009 at 06:14 PM..
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) but he does give some very good historical information on the term "logos" that I found fascinating and wanted to share with you.
) over the picture of God as an octupus!
I noticed also that you didn't respond to the rest of the post but just the first line... that in itself speaks volumes.
