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Obviously then you can come up with nothing in answer to my question. That is fine. And obviously there is no verse that states that to deny Jesus as God is blasphemy, so you are making up your own rules.. that is fine too if you want to box yourself in like that.
As for Titus 2:13 - here is an excerpt from a review of the verse (which of course you are unlikely to respond to, but is apparent in the original language) since it is much better said here than I would say it:
The possessive pronoun ‘our’ occurs after the conjuction “kai”, as is seen above in the Greek and is associated with and prior to “iesou christou”, thus the Greek expression is “kai soteros emon iesou christou” [and saviour of us Jesus Christ]. Trinitarians knowingly and for doctrinal reasons put “our” before ‘God’ and not ‘Jesus Christ’, this allows them to force the Apostle to agree with their 4th century Trinitarianism, but unfortunately for Trinitarians, the original position of the Greek ‘possessive pronoun’ “emon” proves them to be perverting and misusing and abusing the original position of the Greek ‘possessive pronoun’ and they deliberately mislead others into thinking that God and Jesus are one and the same, when they are not!Thoughts.com Blogs - Titus 2:13 and the possessive pronoun 'emon' [our]
You just proved that you either didn't read the post (#189), or you didn't read it with comprehension.
If you had read it with comprehension, then you would have seen that I supplied the Greek rendering of Titus 2:13.
In the (NASV) 'of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
Now, go back to Post #189 and read it all with comprehension. You are without excuse. The correct Greek rendering of Titus 2:13 has been given. Both in Post #189, and here in this post. Read the commentary concerning the sentence structure.
This is Paul declaring that Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. The God.
Now, to make it clear what you did; in your reply, you used the exact same wording, the exact same word order that I used, and yet you tried to make it seem as though the mean old Trinitarians twisted it around to make it say something other than it does. Titus 2:13 says IN THE GREEK, that Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior of us. Now, you can either accept it, or you can continue to deny it for whatever reason. And if you do reject it, you are only kidding yourself.
So goes the New Age camp Mike...they are famous for twisting the Word of God to what they want it to be...it has been that way for years, and will continue that way always.....
Nice.. so now in order to hold on to your trinitarian view you admit that God can die.. ok. Suppose God did die on the cross. What then is the purpose of that sacrifice since we know that he really didn't die like we die but is still God?
And this God in a box for you is:
All three are one but cannot be each other... now how much sense does that make to the layman? Why can't Jesus be the Father if he is God and the Father is God? You have preconceived ideas about what God is and you are unwilling to look at it from any other perspective. It is apparent that you are not trying to explain it to me using sound logic and reason. The word logos means reason and it is Aristotle who used the word logos to represent the logical formation of an argument. However, the trinity is not logical.
If the Father, the son, and the holy spirit are all God... and they are all equal to one another yet the Father cannot be the son, the son cannot be the spirit, the spirit cannot be the father.. haven't we just contradicted that they are all equal and one and the same God?
So here we have that there is:
Exactly One God - confirming Monotheism and denying Polytheism.
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God - each person is equally divine and not subordinate to one another.
The Father is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son - there is three persons which contradicts there being One God and yet confirms that the three are separate persons not just manifestation of God.
According to the Athanasian Creed: "We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person for the Father, another for the Son, and yet another for the Holy Spirit. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one...."
So here we are told to divide the substance of God into three distinct persons.. yet we cannot divide the substance of God.
Now if you say that there are three persons who are all divine/God then you say they are all One God collectively but they are not to be confused with the role of the other... how in the world can that logically be one God?
Hebrews 1:3-4 states that Jesus BECAME superior to the angels upon his ascension to heaven.. after his death. Therefore if we too will ascend to the father after death in the same incorruptible state.. should I worship my Great grandmother who died a devout christian?
Without getting to off topic.. the first part of Revelation (and throughout the NT) we can see that the apostles were servants of Christ. My bible references Deut. 32:43 for the verse you quote above.. "worship him as the angels do" yet the passage in Deut. reads: "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people."
So what we have is nothing close to the verse you quote from Hebrews 1:6 about worshiping the angels. However, as we know.. the word for angels in Hebrews 1: 6 is aggelos which by implication means pastor and literally messenger.
The word aggelos is derived from agelé which means herd.. and ago which means to lead. So that by proper study we can see that in context (which you have said about hebrews is the church) the word angels is better translated as pastors. This also then agrees with the referenced verse in Deut. and with what you are saying about humans worshipping Christ.
Hebrews 1:7 confirms this by quoting Psalm 104:4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.
So you can see that it is not the winged angels that are spoken of here but the messengers and ministers who are human.
Now that is the verse in proper context and meaning.
LOL I just showed that you don't take the time to uncover the truth behind your statements. It is you who doesn't want to uncover the truth but to smother it with your lack of open-mindedness.
I fully wish I could fit in with the many trinitarians but with reasonable study it is proven a false doctrine.
So you have never watched the fictional movies about humans being given the powers of God with the outcome being that they screw it up and cannot be trusted with the authority? I don't think you understand how it is that the trinity is not sola scriptura..
When you say these things it is clear that you have no response.
You have proven over and over again that you will never get it througout this thread and others. Unless you submit to Christ Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you will forever be confused to what the scripture says. The inspiration of the Word of God comes from the Holy Spirit, and that my firend, is your downfall, the lack of discernment.
Jesus Christ is Lord, Saviour, the Man God, with the fullness of the Godhead. Until you submit to that, you will always be in error just as the Jews were, and just as everyone is. All of us have supplied more than enough scripture to back these claims, and by the consistent denial of it, shows that the Holy Spirit isn't in you, or anyone else who backs the claim that He is not. I will pray for all of you.
All paths DO NOT lead to God. The concept that they do, is New Age jargon and considered false teaching, contrary to the word of God.
Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour. The scripture says so.
Quote:
The real issue is that you don't have a response to anything I say. I take the word of God and decipher it according to the scripture and sound reasoning. You, however, take the word of God and read it with trinitarian colored glasses and when that doesn't work you attack character, spiritual maturity, and scriptural understanding. What is funny is that I am not bound by doctrine, therefore by definition I bring an open mind to all the scripture I read... you however will be labeled heretical if you have an open mind about the trinity and deity of Christ.. therefore by definition you must be close-minded
You are truly beyond words katonjj. Revelation is full of the deity of Christ, and so is the entire canon, but you continue to fail in presenting your case, and provide eisegetical nonsense and a consistent twisting of the scripture. None of you know how to exegete properly, and instead you twist the scripture to what you want it to say...I have seen this over and over and over again.
Mike..don't worry brother, I always got your back.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-15-2009 at 05:36 PM..
You all need to take a class in Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew..and spend some time with others who do it well, instead of spending your time mulling over this New Age Jargon and lean into the truth.
Without Christ in your life as your Lord and Saviour, you will always be in error.
In the (NASV) 'of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
Now, go back to Post #189 and read it all with comprehension. You are without excuse. The correct Greek rendering of Titus 2:13 has been given. Both in Post #189, and here in this post. Read the commentary concerning the sentence structure.
This is Paul declaring that Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. The God.
Now, to make it clear what you did; in your reply, you used the exact same wording, the exact same word order that I used, and yet you tried to make it seem as though the mean old Trinitarians twisted it around to make it say something other than it does. Titus 2:13 says IN THE GREEK, that Jesus Christ is the great God and Savior of us. Now, you can either accept it, or you can continue to deny it for whatever reason. And if you do reject it, you are only kidding yourself.
Actually you didn't read very carefully as those were not my words but a copy and paste of the referenced link provided. I happen to agree with it.
Look at Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Then look at Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ
Do you think that Titus reveals that Jesus is God in 2:13 but not in 1:4?
The trinitarians have taken a verse and made is seem to be something it is not.
The great God and God the Father are the same... Christ Jesus our savior and our savior Jesus Christ are the same..
The only reason trinitarians don't use Titus 1:4 is their belief that the father cannot be the son.. otherwise the two verses are identical!
You have proven over and over again that you will never get it througout this thread and others. Unless you submit to Christ Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you will forever be confused to what the scripture says. The inspiration of the Word of God comes from the Holy Spirit, and that my firend, is your downfall, the lack of discernment.
Jesus Christ is Lord, Saviour, the Man God, with the fullness of the Godhead. Until you submit to that, you will always be in error just as the Jews were, and just as everyone is. All of us have supplied more than enough scripture to back these claims, and by the consistent denial of it, shows that the Holy Spirit isn't in you, or anyone else who backs the claim that He is not. I will pray for all of you.
All paths DO NOT lead to God. The concept that they do, is New Age jargon and considered false teaching, contrary to the word of God.
Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour. The scripture says so.
I never deny that Jesus is lord and savior... I only deny that God came in human form to earth...
Again you prove my words:
"The real issue is that you don't have a response to anything I say. I take the word of God and decipher it according to the scripture and sound reasoning. You, however, take the word of God and read it with trinitarian colored glasses and when that doesn't work you attack character, spiritual maturity, and scriptural understanding. What is funny is that I am not bound by doctrine, therefore by definition I bring an open mind to all the scripture I read... you however will be labeled heretical if you have an open mind about the trinity and deity of Christ.. therefore by definition you must be close-minded"
Quote:
You are truly beyond words katonjj. Revelation is full of the deity of Christ, and so is the entire canon, but you continue to fail in presenting your case, and provide eisegetical nonsense and a consistent twisting of the scripture. None of you know how to exegete properly, and instead you twist the scripture to what you want it to say...I have seen this over and over and over again.
Mike..don't worry brother, I always got your back.
See the red word here in your statement above? The word is a noun not a verb. and mind you there is no verb form of exegete or exegesis. if you can't manage the English language.. how do you expect to manage any other language effectively?
Your use of this word has bothered me throughout this thread.. now I feel much better having pointed that out.
Furthermore.. eisegetical means to interpret using bias or one's own meaning rather than the actual meaning of the text.. which is a common mistake made by trinitarians. Their bias leads them to pick out verses and make them into trinity verses. For example.. Titus 2:13
So when you learn that a noun cannot be used as a verb.. I will take your criticism to heart.. but for now, all you are doing is showing that you are judgemental and closeminded when it comes to interpretation of scripture.
Once again I thoroughly explained my viewpoint.. sincerely and yet you don't refute it but rather make a personal attack.
*shrugs shoulders* perhaps you don't see what you are doing but I am sure that there are some that do.. Same goes for Mike..
Perhaps we should quote all of the personal attacks by you two and then you will see that what you have done in this thread is not to refute anything but assert your own view and doctrine while attacking others on a personal level.
I think I will just DM you so that you don't have to search for my answer and so it doesn't disturb the thread. Ok.. well apparently you don't accept DM's so...
I will post it here and perhaps you can accept my friendship so I can DM you in the future?
Well.. I read through chapter 21..
I see the correlation you see.. So you are saying that if God causes a pit (that of sinful nature I presume) and humans fall into it then the owner of the pit will pay (sacrifice of himself) and the dead (man) will be his...
However.. the verse states that the owner of the animal is different from the owner of the pit... so God paying himself doesn't make sense to me since he owns both the pit and the animal that falls in.
I think that if this verse compares to the verses you quote it is in the sense that Jesus is the covering of the pit.. So God dug the pit and some fell in.. he rescues those who fall in (the OT people) and then covers it with Christ. Now he could, theoretically, cover the pit with himself and in essence that is what he has done..
Now I personally think that if the sacrifices of the OT were the shadow of the sacrifice of Christ.. then comparing them would be appropriate.
First we must ask ourselves if God thought the sacrifice of animals was necessary:
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?" (Isa 1:11)
"your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me" (Jer 6:20)
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;...I spoke not unto your fathers nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them saying, Obey my voice and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you" (Jer 7:22-23)
"Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams" (I Sam 15:22)
"To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice...The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination" (Prov 21:3,27)
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart..." (Psa 51:17; Isa 66:2)
He shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness (Psa 51:19)
So I believe that God did not require sacrifices of animals but that he realized that in order to alleviate the consciences of men they required something that would create a sense of being whole and so they sacrificed animals.
We know from scripture that the killing of a man or sacrifice of a man is completely against God's plan for man.
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Just like the sacrifice of the animal was a pledge of a good conscience toward God..
Now what Christ did was to preach that the God of the Israelites did not require sacrifices of animals but wanted them to obey his spirit and use this obedience to be able to walk in the light rather than the darkness.. The problem was that the natural reaction of those in authority within Jerusalem were predisposed to wanting to kill him for this message.
Now Christ's sacrifice was that he was willing to be killed in order to spread the good news. That doesn't require Christ to be God. It is the breakdown of the OT laws of sacrifice that ensured the salvation... and that was and always is available to men without sacrifice.. according to God.. it is men who need proof by way of sacrifice.
My account e-mails should be set up to work now. When I first joined the site, I didn't set up any preferences...just started typing..it's a guy thing.. LOL Thank-you for the reminder to do so.
I'll give some feedback on these verses later and so others can also share their thoughts about them.
Katonjj.....Christ is the Saviour and so is God...how do you confuse this?
Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
They are one...and yet you still deny?
Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
What God does is through Jesus and not Jesus himself. There is a clear line between Jesus' saving work and God as the savior.. it is you who is confusing the two.
Isaiah 19:20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them
Hosea 13:4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me."
Yet who actually led them out of Egypt? So is Moses then God or just that God saved them through Moses?
2 Kings 13:5 The LORD provided a deliverer for Israel, and they escaped from the power of Aram. So the Israelites lived in their own homes as they had before
Judges 3:15 Again the Israelites cried out to the LORD, and he gave them a deliverer--Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab.
So Ehud was also a savior.. what Ehud also God?
There are many men that were sent to save the Israelites from their various perils.... all have one thing in common... It was the one who sent them that was the savior.. not they themselves. Christ is no different. Christ came because God sent him. God is the savior and Christ is the tool of God for salvation or deliverance.
My account e-mails should be set up to work now. When I first joined the site, I didn't set up any preferences...just started typing..it's a guy thing.. LOL Thank-you for the reminder to do so.
I'll give some feedback on these verses later and so others can also share their thoughts about them.
LOL like asking for directions? I set up mine right away.. that is hilarious! Sure.. take your time. I appreciate having someone who disagrees with me agreeably..
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how do you expect to manage any other language effectively?
Ok.. well apparently you don't accept DM's so... 
Thank-you for the reminder to do so.
