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Old 01-17-2011, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 6,024,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Because they were men. In Hebraic thought, “the Son of man” meant an ordinary, mortal man (Read Isaiah 51:12KJV). The Jewry prophets and ‘Jesus’ were men.
The the Son of the Man, is indeed quite significant to Christ, God the Son and the Father, and the Holy Spirit - Isa 9:7. The Man clearly refers to the Father, the Man who begot the Son - Psalm 2:7, and thus unmistakeably refers to the Father as a Man, the Man. This Greek construction of the Son of the Man parallels the Greek construction found in 2 John 3 where it refers to Christ as the Son of the Father, του υιου του πατρος - tou huiou tou patros. The Gospels call Him, the Son of the Man. 2 John 3 calls Him, the Son of the Father. They all speak of the same Man, the Father, Christ. Now, even though Christ is indeed of David's seed Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8, σπερματος δαβιδ, being David's offspring, Christ is also David's Root - God Revelation 5:5 η ριζα δαβιδ [hê hriza dabid]; Revelation 22:16 and Lord in Matthew 22:42-45.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:10 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaaman2000 View Post
Well, Mike555, what would you have to say about these contradiction to your claims: John 8:28-29, John 12:44 & 49-50, and Acts 7:55-56 just a few to list.
John 8:28-29 and John 12:44 & 49-50 speak to the fact that Jesus was sent into the world. Indeed He was. Jesus Christ who is the Second Person of the Godhead, co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit, the three being One God, a UNITED ONE, was commissioned by the First Person of the Trinity - the author of the plan of salvation and therefore called the Father as the authority in the plan, to come into the world to redeem man from the penalty of sin. Jesus agreed to do this. He submitted Himself to the will of the Father during His first advent in keeping with the plan for our salvation.

Acts 7:55-56 speaks of Jesus as being at the right hand of the Father. The place of honor. At this very moment, Jesus Christ in resurrection body is seated at the right hand of the Father. In Acts 7:55-56, Jesus stood up for the stoning to death of Stephen. And what an honor that was to Stephen.

You must understand that since His incarnation, Jesus is in hypostatic union. He is both eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one person. The attributes of His deity and the attributes of His humanity never mix or combine. The attributes of His deity remain separate from the attributes of His humanity. This makes Jesus the unique Person of the universe. As God, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His incarnation didn't change anything about His deity. His humanity remains separate from His deity. Therefore, during His time on this earth before His resurrection, as God, Jesus was omnipotent, and yet in His humanity He could be weak. With His strategic victory over Satan at the cross, His resurrection and acension, Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father.

In post #477 you indicated a desire to learn. That is good. I provide for you here at the following link, a source of sound orthodox fundamental basic Bible doctrine. I invite you to go into it and listen to the audio classes. Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX If you will avail yourself of this teaching ministry you will learn much.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaaman2000 View Post
Please reveal those scripture from the scriptures for me please, cause i am still learning.
Is He not called the Alpha and Omega?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Rev 1:10-13 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man [Christ], clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days [God] did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

Rev 1:14 His [Christ - the son of man] head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days [God], and they brought him near before him.

Christ is the revelation of God to us. Hope this helps.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:16 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,573,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Is He not called the Alpha and Omega?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Rev 1:10-13 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man [Christ], clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days [God] did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

Rev 1:14 His [Christ - the son of man] head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days [God], and they brought him near before him.

Christ is the revelation of God to us. Hope this helps.
Good references.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Is He not called the Alpha and Omega?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Rev 1:10-13 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man [Christ], clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days [God] did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

Rev 1:14 His [Christ - the son of man] head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days [God], and they brought him near before him.

Christ is the revelation of God to us. Hope this helps.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:33 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
There is absolutely nothing outside he bible that indicates jesus ever lived.
Indeed there is. As it is much faster and easier to direct you to a link with the pertinent information, then it is to write it out myself, I will ask you to take a look at the information contained at the following link. Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?

If you are truthfully seeking to find out whether Jesus lived, this will be of help to you.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In His humanity, He is called Jesus. As God, He is Yah-weh or Jehovah.

There is nothing impersonal about the Word in John chapter one. In verses 1 through 4 The Word is referred to with the masculine personal pronouns 'He',and 'Him' four times.
I hear what you are saying, but I want you to know now those pronouns in vss 3, 4 can equally validly be translated as “it.” If memory serves, there were 7 or 8 translations before the 1611 King James Version and also in some modern translations [Gk. autos] in vss 3, 4 is translated "it" not "he” or “him”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus has always been The Word. He did not become The Word. The Word became flesh.
Once again, John 1:1-14 and Phil 2:6-8 are two of the clearest scriptures attesting to the deity of Christ.

I do not think that you are going to listen to me. Therefore, I suggest that you do some honest research on the matter. Talk to a pastor. Google the subject. Fundamental Christianity recognizes the deity of Christ. It is groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses that deny His deity.
The “word” [Gk. logos] was turned into a flesh and blood form - "the word was made flesh" (Joh. 1:14). ‘Jesus’ personally was 'the word made flesh' rather than "the word". I don’t believe 'Jesus’ and "the word” are equivalent in John 1:1.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:27 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I hear what you are saying, but I want you to know now those pronouns in vss 3, 4 can equally validly be translated as “it.” If memory serves, there were 7 or 8 translations before the 1611 King James Version and also in some modern translations [Gk. autos] in vss 3, 4 is translated "it" not "he” or “him”.

The “word” [Gk. logos] was turned into a flesh and blood form - "the word was made flesh" (Joh. 1:14). ‘Jesus’ personally was 'the word made flesh' rather than "the word". I don’t believe 'Jesus’ and "the word” are equivalent in John 1:1.
Forget the translations. Go to the Greek. The word is 'autos' and has the meaning of he, she, it, they, them, same. With regard to Jesus, the word 'autos' is a personal possessive pronoun in the masculine gender and is 'He'. Here you can look at it as it is in the Greek John 1:3 Biblos Interlinear Bible


The Bible is absolutely clear that Jesus Christ is God. I hope you can see that.

I would like for you to go to Post 480 and read it carefully. I have included passages from both the Old and New Testament which show that Jesus Christ is God and that God is triune. In Isaiah 48 the preincarnate Jesus Christ is speaking.

When Jesus says of Himself 'I am the first and I am the last', He is identifying Himself as being God. Compare the passages in post 480.

When He said of Himself that He is 'I am', as He did in John 8:58, He identified Himself as God. John 8:58 ''Truly truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I am'' He didn't say 'I was', He said 'I am.' He was identifying Himself as God with the use of the Jehovahistic 'I AM'. The same way He identified Himself to Moses in the burning bush. The Jews understood this and tried to kill Jesus for saying it.

And in John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (the word He is not in the Greek), you shall die in your sins.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 6,024,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I hear what you are saying, but I want you to know now those pronouns in vss 3, 4 can equally validly be translated as “it.” If memory serves, there were 7 or 8 translations before the 1611 King James Version and also in some modern translations [Gk. autos] in vss 3, 4 is translated "it" not "he” or “him”.

The “word” [Gk. logos] was turned into a flesh and blood form - "the word was made flesh" (Joh. 1:14). ‘Jesus’ personally was 'the word made flesh' rather than "the word". I don’t believe 'Jesus’ and "the word” are equivalent in John 1:1.
What was the word before it became flesh?

Christ is Deity

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The first thing to do here is to explain the difference between Theon and Theos. Both words mean God equally. The difference is Theon is in the accusative case (it is the direct object of the sentence) and theos is in the nominative case (it is the subject of the sentence).

In the English, word order within a sentence informs the reader of which words are the subject and which word is the direct object. This is not true in the Greek. The clues used to figure out the subject and direct objects of a sentence are called "case endings".

The root of God in the Greek is : Theo

The ending sigma (singular) shows that Theos within a sentence is the subject of that sentence. Therefore, the case ending is nominative or a singular masculine.

The ending ἦν (nominative) shows that Theon within a sentence is the direct object. Therefore, the case ending is accusative or singular masculine.

And if both nouns in a sentence both end in a sigma, as in John 1:1, the definite article, ho, is called the "indicating subject", and its function is to point out to the reader that logos, not theos, is the subject of the clause. This is plain Greek 101.

Another form is Theou, which is genitive.

Of all those who have studied Greek on this list will testify that the inflectional differences in Greek nouns merely indicate the place or function it has within the sentence. An example in English is:

the Lord/the Lord's

The former may be used in the nominative case (and other cases in Eng.), while the inflection of the latter indicates that it is in the genitive case. But there is no qualitative nor quantitative difference that can be made simply by virtue of the inflection.

TR below, which was derived from the Vulgate, written primarily by Jerome, in the 5th century AD.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν...14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας...18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Second, let's get down to the schematics and syntax, as well as proper exegesis to the scripture for those that seem a little befuddled by the nature in which John of Zebedee had so meticulously pointed out in his use of grammar.

John's first assertion is that "In the beginning was the Word." Which beginning? Considering the whole context of the prologue and discourse in its entirety, many have identified this beginning as the same beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

But most see that the assertion of the Apostle goes far beyond that.

The key element in understanding this, the first phrase of this verse, is the form of the word "was," which in the Greek language in which John was writing, is the word ἦν (the "e" pronounced as a long "a" as in "I ate the food"). It is a timeless word - that is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the "beginning" as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. Therefore, the Word is eternal, timeless. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at "the beginning," for He, God, Christ, predates that beginning.

John is very careful in his language at this point. Throughout this section of his prologue and discourse, John carefully contrasts the Word, and all other things. He does so by consistently using ἦν of the Logos, the Word, and by consistently employing a totally different verb in reference to all other things. This other verb is "to become" (γίνομαι). It is used of John the Baptist in verse 6, of the world in verse 10, and the children of God in verse 12. Only when we come to verse 14 does John use "to become" of the Word, and that is when the Word "became flesh."
This refers to a specific point in time, the incarnation, and fully demonstrates John's intentional usage of contrasting verbs.

John is not alone in this. Jesus contrasted Abraham's "becoming" with His own eternal existence in John 8:58 in the same way.
The Psalmist contrasted the creation of the world with the eternity of God in Psalm 90:2 in the LXX, by using the same verbs found in John 1:1 and 14.

Hardly seems coincidental, does it?

We have seen that the Word is eternal.

John filled the Word with personality and identified the Word not as some fuzzy, ethereal essence that was the guiding principle of all things, (as the Greeks thought it did), but as the eternal Son of God, the One, God, Who entered into time, and into man's experience as Jesus of Nazareth at the time of conception in Mary. The "Word" reveals that Jesus is the mind of God, the thought of God, His full and living revelation, and He is God. Jesus did not just come to tell us what God is like - He showed us in person, because He is, I AM. He is the revelation of God in the flesh.

John did not stop here. He did not leave us to simply know the eternity of the Word. The next phrase says, "and the Word was with God." Again we find the verb "was" cropping up, again pointing to the timelessness of the subject at hand. The Word was with God. The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means "to be in company with someone" or to be "face-to-face."

It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship.

Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.

This phrase, if taken completely alone, would be very confusing for anyone as we have seen over and over again, since John has already asserted the eternalness of the Word. Now he clearly distinguishes between the Word and God. He asserts that they are distinguishable. "God" and "Word" are not interchangeable terms.

Then, is John talking about two "gods?"
Can more than one being be fully eternal?

John was a monotheistic Jew. He could never believe in more than one Being Who can rightly be called "God."

How then is this to be understood?

This phrase must be taken with the one that follows. We read, "and the Word was God." Again, the eternal ἦν.

John avoids confusion by telling us that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus, as we know Him as the Word, does not constitute everything that is included in the Godhead.

In other words, John is not teaching the ancient heresy known as Sabellianism, which taught that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are simply three different aspects of one person, i.e., Jesus is the Father, the Father is the Spirit, and so on.

Instead, John here asserts the full Deity of Christ, while informing us that He is not the Father, but that they ("God" and the "Word") have eternally co-existed together since the beginning of time.

This last phrase has come under heavy fire throughout this thread and many others. This passage teaches that the Word, as to His essential nature, is God. He did not use the adjective, theios, which would describe a divine nature, or a god-like one.

Instead, he used theos, the very word John will use consistently for the Father, the "only true God" John 17:3. He uses the term three times of Jesus in the Gospel, here, in 1:18, and in John 20:28.

It can not be doubted that John would never call a creature theos.

His upbringing and Jewish heritage forbade that. John would have us realize that what the Word was in eternity was not merely God's co-eternal fellow, but the eternal God's self. John of Zebedee walks a tight line here. By the simple omission of the article ("the", or in Greek, ho) before the word for God in the last phrase, John avoids teaching Sabellianism, while by placing the word where it is in the clause, he defeats another heresy, Arianism, which denies the true Deity of the Lord Jesus. A person who accepts the inspiration of the Scriptures can not help but be thrilled at this passage. John goes on in verse 2 to reiterate the eternal fellowship of the Father and Son, making sure that all understand that "this one," the Word, was (there it is again) in the beginning pros ton theon, with God.
Their fellowship and relationship precedes all else, and it is timeless.

As icing on the cake, for many of you that adhere to this heresy of Christ not being God, John then precludes anyone from misunderstanding his claim that Jesus is eternally God by writing verse 3.

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

"πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν"

One can hardly be more inclusive than that. There is simply nothing that is existent anywhere that was not created by the Word. He created everything, as Hebrews 1 points out directly to you all.

Obviously, therefore, if one can be described as creating everything, one must be the Creator, and certainly not a creation. The Word is the Creator. All people reading John's words would understand that the Creator is God, not some lower being created by God to do the work for Him. By not qualifying his statement, John assured that we could correctly understand his intention and his teaching concerning Christ, the Word. He is eternally God, the Creator.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:14 PM
 
1,837 posts, read 1,836,674 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What was the word before it became flesh?

Christ is Deity

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The first thing to do here is to explain the difference between Theon and Theos. Both words mean God equally. The difference is Theon is in the accusative case (it is the direct object of the sentence) and theos is in the nominative case (it is the subject of the sentence).

In the English, word order within a sentence informs the reader of which words are the subject and which word is the direct object. This is not true in the Greek. The clues used to figure out the subject and direct objects of a sentence are called "case endings".

The root of God in the Greek is : Theo

The ending sigma (singular) shows that Theos within a sentence is the subject of that sentence. Therefore, the case ending is nominative or a singular masculine.

The ending ἦν (nominative) shows that Theon within a sentence is the direct object. Therefore, the case ending is accusative or singular masculine.

And if both nouns in a sentence both end in a sigma, as in John 1:1, the definite article, ho, is called the "indicating subject", and its function is to point out to the reader that logos, not theos, is the subject of the clause. This is plain Greek 101.

Another form is Theou, which is genitive.

Of all those who have studied Greek on this list will testify that the inflectional differences in Greek nouns merely indicate the place or function it has within the sentence. An example in English is:

the Lord/the Lord's

The former may be used in the nominative case (and other cases in Eng.), while the inflection of the latter indicates that it is in the genitive case. But there is no qualitative nor quantitative difference that can be made simply by virtue of the inflection.

TR below, which was derived from the Vulgate, written primarily by Jerome, in the 5th century AD.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν...14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας...18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Second, let's get down to the schematics and syntax, as well as proper exegesis to the scripture for those that seem a little befuddled by the nature in which John of Zebedee had so meticulously pointed out in his use of grammar.

John's first assertion is that "In the beginning was the Word." Which beginning? Considering the whole context of the prologue and discourse in its entirety, many have identified this beginning as the same beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

But most see that the assertion of the Apostle goes far beyond that.

The key element in understanding this, the first phrase of this verse, is the form of the word "was," which in the Greek language in which John was writing, is the word ἦν (the "e" pronounced as a long "a" as in "I ate the food"). It is a timeless word - that is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the "beginning" as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. Therefore, the Word is eternal, timeless. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at "the beginning," for He, God, Christ, predates that beginning.

John is very careful in his language at this point. Throughout this section of his prologue and discourse, John carefully contrasts the Word, and all other things. He does so by consistently using ἦν of the Logos, the Word, and by consistently employing a totally different verb in reference to all other things. This other verb is "to become" (γίνομαι). It is used of John the Baptist in verse 6, of the world in verse 10, and the children of God in verse 12. Only when we come to verse 14 does John use "to become" of the Word, and that is when the Word "became flesh."
This refers to a specific point in time, the incarnation, and fully demonstrates John's intentional usage of contrasting verbs.

John is not alone in this. Jesus contrasted Abraham's "becoming" with His own eternal existence in John 8:58 in the same way.
The Psalmist contrasted the creation of the world with the eternity of God in Psalm 90:2 in the LXX, by using the same verbs found in John 1:1 and 14.

Hardly seems coincidental, does it?

We have seen that the Word is eternal.

John filled the Word with personality and identified the Word not as some fuzzy, ethereal essence that was the guiding principle of all things, (as the Greeks thought it did), but as the eternal Son of God, the One, God, Who entered into time, and into man's experience as Jesus of Nazareth at the time of conception in Mary. The "Word" reveals that Jesus is the mind of God, the thought of God, His full and living revelation, and He is God. Jesus did not just come to tell us what God is like - He showed us in person, because He is, I AM. He is the revelation of God in the flesh.

John did not stop here. He did not leave us to simply know the eternity of the Word. The next phrase says, "and the Word was with God." Again we find the verb "was" cropping up, again pointing to the timelessness of the subject at hand. The Word was with God. The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means "to be in company with someone" or to be "face-to-face."

It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship.

Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.

This phrase, if taken completely alone, would be very confusing for anyone as we have seen over and over again, since John has already asserted the eternalness of the Word. Now he clearly distinguishes between the Word and God. He asserts that they are distinguishable. "God" and "Word" are not interchangeable terms.

Then, is John talking about two "gods?"
Can more than one being be fully eternal?

John was a monotheistic Jew. He could never believe in more than one Being Who can rightly be called "God."

How then is this to be understood?

This phrase must be taken with the one that follows. We read, "and the Word was God." Again, the eternal ἦν.

John avoids confusion by telling us that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus, as we know Him as the Word, does not constitute everything that is included in the Godhead.

In other words, John is not teaching the ancient heresy known as Sabellianism, which taught that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are simply three different aspects of one person, i.e., Jesus is the Father, the Father is the Spirit, and so on.

Instead, John here asserts the full Deity of Christ, while informing us that He is not the Father, but that they ("God" and the "Word") have eternally co-existed together since the beginning of time.

This last phrase has come under heavy fire throughout this thread and many others. This passage teaches that the Word, as to His essential nature, is God. He did not use the adjective, theios, which would describe a divine nature, or a god-like one.

Instead, he used theos, the very word John will use consistently for the Father, the "only true God" John 17:3. He uses the term three times of Jesus in the Gospel, here, in 1:18, and in John 20:28.

It can not be doubted that John would never call a creature theos.

His upbringing and Jewish heritage forbade that. John would have us realize that what the Word was in eternity was not merely God's co-eternal fellow, but the eternal God's self. John of Zebedee walks a tight line here. By the simple omission of the article ("the", or in Greek, ho) before the word for God in the last phrase, John avoids teaching Sabellianism, while by placing the word where it is in the clause, he defeats another heresy, Arianism, which denies the true Deity of the Lord Jesus. A person who accepts the inspiration of the Scriptures can not help but be thrilled at this passage. John goes on in verse 2 to reiterate the eternal fellowship of the Father and Son, making sure that all understand that "this one," the Word, was (there it is again) in the beginning pros ton theon, with God.
Their fellowship and relationship precedes all else, and it is timeless.

As icing on the cake, for many of you that adhere to this heresy of Christ not being God, John then precludes anyone from misunderstanding his claim that Jesus is eternally God by writing verse 3.

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

"πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν"

One can hardly be more inclusive than that. There is simply nothing that is existent anywhere that was not created by the Word. He created everything, as Hebrews 1 points out directly to you all.

Obviously, therefore, if one can be described as creating everything, one must be the Creator, and certainly not a creation. The Word is the Creator. All people reading John's words would understand that the Creator is God, not some lower being created by God to do the work for Him. By not qualifying his statement, John assured that we could correctly understand his intention and his teaching concerning Christ, the Word. He is eternally God, the Creator.

Hope that helps.
It's very humbling to know that someone like yourself took the time to come on this forum and help some brethren out. I am so serious. We want to know MORE!!! PLEASE...

I'm not done with what you just posted yet but since I understand it can we see more?
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