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Old 01-18-2011, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
It's very humbling to know that someone like yourself took the time to come on this forum and help some brethren out. I am so serious. We want to know MORE!!! PLEASE...

I'm not done with what you just posted yet but since I understand it can we see more?
What more would you like to know?...and thank you for the kind words.....maybe thumbing through the thread of the link above may help.....I don't know what happened to katonjj, but I hope and sure she is entrusting her walk with God, and hopefully, Christ...the eternal and everlasting Father.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:42 AM
 
698 posts, read 597,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Forget the translations. Go to the Greek. The word is 'autos' and has the meaning of he, she, it, they, them, same. With regard to Jesus, the word 'autos' is a personal possessive pronoun in the masculine gender and is 'He'. Here you can look at it as it is in the Greek John 1:3 Biblos Interlinear Bible


The Bible is absolutely clear that Jesus Christ is God. I hope you can see that.

I would like for you to go to Post 480 and read it carefully. I have included passages from both the Old and New Testament which show that Jesus Christ is God and that God is triune. In Isaiah 48 the preincarnate Jesus Christ is speaking.

When Jesus says of Himself 'I am the first and I am the last', He is identifying Himself as being God. Compare the passages in post 480.

When He said of Himself that He is 'I am', as He did in John 8:58, He identified Himself as God. John 8:58 ''Truly truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I am'' He didn't say 'I was', He said 'I am.' He was identifying Himself as God with the use of the Jehovahistic 'I AM'. The same way He identified Himself to Moses in the burning bush. The Jews understood this and tried to kill Jesus for saying it.

And in John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (the word He is not in the Greek), you shall die in your sins.
Well, the fact that a personal possessive pronoun in the masculine gender is used doesn’t necessarily suggest that a ‘person’ is being spoken of. There is, as I assume you know, a principle in the ‘bible’ of personification.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:17 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Well, the fact that a personal possessive pronoun in the masculine gender is used doesn’t necessarily suggest that a ‘person’ is being spoken of. There is, as I assume you know, a principle in the ‘bible’ of personification.
I suggest that you go back and read my posts and consider all that's been said.

Keep in mind that God the Father called Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8), Jesus identifed Himself as God and the Jews tried to kill Him for that reason (John 8:58-59). The apostles recognized Jesus as God. It is the preincarnate Jesus who is speaking in Isaiah 48.

There are people who are determined to deny the deity of Christ no matter how much it is shown to them from Scripture that He is God. It may be that you are one of those people. If however, you have not closed your mind to the facts, then go back over the posts in this thread, and do some research on Google. You'll find much information attesting to the deity of Jesus Christ.

Do yourself a favor and go into the following site which compares the scriptures which speak of God, and the scriptures which speak of Jesus who is God and see by the comparison that Jesus Christ IS God.

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate


See also, the following link.

Is Jesus Christ a man, or is he God? - KidExplorers.com / ChristianAnswers.Net
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Unbiblical statements:
"God is Triune in Nature"

"God is three separate and distinct Persons"

"God is a Person."

"Who all have the same exact and identical essence."

"One God in thee Persons"

"Three persons with one essence."

If God and the holy spirit are two separate "persons" then Jesus was begotten by two Gods for He said He is the Son of God and "begotten by holy spirit."

The only way to "prove" trinity is to use unbibilcal statements not found in the Bible. They cloud more than clear the truth of the relationship of God to the Son.
I thought you died 340AD Eusebius
Great mind live on I guess.

If I may I would like to add another unbiblical statement.

The Eternal Father without a beginning and a end died (=ended) on the cross. And was resurrected (=beginning) 3 days later.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:50 AM
 
376 posts, read 381,838 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it is not. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the triune God. They are co-equal and co-eternal. Three Persons who are ONE God.
Read the Greek Scripture and see the Holy Spirit is always called "it".
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:45 PM
 
698 posts, read 597,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What was the word before it became flesh?

Christ is Deity

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The first thing to do here is to explain the difference between Theon and Theos. Both words mean God equally. The difference is Theon is in the accusative case (it is the direct object of the sentence) and theos is in the nominative case (it is the subject of the sentence).

In the English, word order within a sentence informs the reader of which words are the subject and which word is the direct object. This is not true in the Greek. The clues used to figure out the subject and direct objects of a sentence are called "case endings".

The root of God in the Greek is : Theo

The ending sigma (singular) shows that Theos within a sentence is the subject of that sentence. Therefore, the case ending is nominative or a singular masculine.

The ending ἦν (nominative) shows that Theon within a sentence is the direct object. Therefore, the case ending is accusative or singular masculine.

And if both nouns in a sentence both end in a sigma, as in John 1:1, the definite article, ho, is called the "indicating subject", and its function is to point out to the reader that logos, not theos, is the subject of the clause. This is plain Greek 101.

Another form is Theou, which is genitive.

Of all those who have studied Greek on this list will testify that the inflectional differences in Greek nouns merely indicate the place or function it has within the sentence. An example in English is:

the Lord/the Lord's

The former may be used in the nominative case (and other cases in Eng.), while the inflection of the latter indicates that it is in the genitive case. But there is no qualitative nor quantitative difference that can be made simply by virtue of the inflection.

TR below, which was derived from the Vulgate, written primarily by Jerome, in the 5th century AD.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν...14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας...18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Second, let's get down to the schematics and syntax, as well as proper exegesis to the scripture for those that seem a little befuddled by the nature in which John of Zebedee had so meticulously pointed out in his use of grammar.

John's first assertion is that "In the beginning was the Word." Which beginning? Considering the whole context of the prologue and discourse in its entirety, many have identified this beginning as the same beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

But most see that the assertion of the Apostle goes far beyond that.

The key element in understanding this, the first phrase of this verse, is the form of the word "was," which in the Greek language in which John was writing, is the word ἦν (the "e" pronounced as a long "a" as in "I ate the food"). It is a timeless word - that is, it simply points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the "beginning" as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. Therefore, the Word is eternal, timeless. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at "the beginning," for He, God, Christ, predates that beginning.

John is very careful in his language at this point. Throughout this section of his prologue and discourse, John carefully contrasts the Word, and all other things. He does so by consistently using ἦν of the Logos, the Word, and by consistently employing a totally different verb in reference to all other things. This other verb is "to become" (γίνομαι). It is used of John the Baptist in verse 6, of the world in verse 10, and the children of God in verse 12. Only when we come to verse 14 does John use "to become" of the Word, and that is when the Word "became flesh."
This refers to a specific point in time, the incarnation, and fully demonstrates John's intentional usage of contrasting verbs.

John is not alone in this. Jesus contrasted Abraham's "becoming" with His own eternal existence in John 8:58 in the same way.
The Psalmist contrasted the creation of the world with the eternity of God in Psalm 90:2 in the LXX, by using the same verbs found in John 1:1 and 14.

Hardly seems coincidental, does it?

We have seen that the Word is eternal.

John filled the Word with personality and identified the Word not as some fuzzy, ethereal essence that was the guiding principle of all things, (as the Greeks thought it did), but as the eternal Son of God, the One, God, Who entered into time, and into man's experience as Jesus of Nazareth at the time of conception in Mary. The "Word" reveals that Jesus is the mind of God, the thought of God, His full and living revelation, and He is God. Jesus did not just come to tell us what God is like - He showed us in person, because He is, I AM. He is the revelation of God in the flesh.

John did not stop here. He did not leave us to simply know the eternity of the Word. The next phrase says, "and the Word was with God." Again we find the verb "was" cropping up, again pointing to the timelessness of the subject at hand. The Word was with God. The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means "to be in company with someone" or to be "face-to-face."

It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship.

Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.

This phrase, if taken completely alone, would be very confusing for anyone as we have seen over and over again, since John has already asserted the eternalness of the Word. Now he clearly distinguishes between the Word and God. He asserts that they are distinguishable. "God" and "Word" are not interchangeable terms.

Then, is John talking about two "gods?"
Can more than one being be fully eternal?

John was a monotheistic Jew. He could never believe in more than one Being Who can rightly be called "God."

How then is this to be understood?

This phrase must be taken with the one that follows. We read, "and the Word was God." Again, the eternal ἦν.

John avoids confusion by telling us that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus, as we know Him as the Word, does not constitute everything that is included in the Godhead.

In other words, John is not teaching the ancient heresy known as Sabellianism, which taught that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are simply three different aspects of one person, i.e., Jesus is the Father, the Father is the Spirit, and so on.

Instead, John here asserts the full Deity of Christ, while informing us that He is not the Father, but that they ("God" and the "Word") have eternally co-existed together since the beginning of time.

This last phrase has come under heavy fire throughout this thread and many others. This passage teaches that the Word, as to His essential nature, is God. He did not use the adjective, theios, which would describe a divine nature, or a god-like one.

Instead, he used theos, the very word John will use consistently for the Father, the "only true God" John 17:3. He uses the term three times of Jesus in the Gospel, here, in 1:18, and in John 20:28.

It can not be doubted that John would never call a creature theos.

His upbringing and Jewish heritage forbade that. John would have us realize that what the Word was in eternity was not merely God's co-eternal fellow, but the eternal God's self. John of Zebedee walks a tight line here. By the simple omission of the article ("the", or in Greek, ho) before the word for God in the last phrase, John avoids teaching Sabellianism, while by placing the word where it is in the clause, he defeats another heresy, Arianism, which denies the true Deity of the Lord Jesus. A person who accepts the inspiration of the Scriptures can not help but be thrilled at this passage. John goes on in verse 2 to reiterate the eternal fellowship of the Father and Son, making sure that all understand that "this one," the Word, was (there it is again) in the beginning pros ton theon, with God.
Their fellowship and relationship precedes all else, and it is timeless.

As icing on the cake, for many of you that adhere to this heresy of Christ not being God, John then precludes anyone from misunderstanding his claim that Jesus is eternally God by writing verse 3.

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."


"πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν"


One can hardly be more inclusive than that. There is simply nothing that is existent anywhere that was not created by the Word. He created everything, as Hebrews 1 points out directly to you all.


Obviously, therefore, if one can be described as creating everything, one must be the Creator, and certainly not a creation. The Word is the Creator. All people reading John's words would understand that the Creator is God, not some lower being created by God to do the work for Him. By not qualifying his statement, John assured that we could correctly understand his intention and his teaching concerning Christ, the Word. He is eternally God, the Creator.

Hope that helps.
Sciotamicks, I would like to point out that the Greek word translated “by” [Gk. dia] “the word was made by him” it can also mean “by reason of him, through him, or on account of him”. Look it up. Dia is a word of wide usage. So it doesn’t always mean “by”. Actually dia often means 'on account of' rather than "by" in the NT
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:56 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, it is not. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the triune God. They are co-equal and co-eternal. Three Persons who are ONE God.




Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
Read the Greek Scripture and see the Holy Spirit is always called "it".
To the contrary. God the Holy Spirit is most definitely referred to in the masculine. As an example read the following passage. I will give the Greek word and the gender for all the personal pronouns that refer to the Holy Spirit.

John 16:5 ''But now I am going to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are you going?'' 6] ''But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7] ''But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you, but if I go I will send Him (auton-masculine) to you. 8] ''And having come, He (ekeinos-masculine) will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12] ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now. 13] ''But when He (ekeinos-masculine), the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide (odegesei- 3rd person singular) you unto all the truth; for He (lalesei-3rd person singular) will speak not of Himself (eautou-masculine), but whatever He may hear (akouei- 3rd person singular), He will speak (lalesei-3rd person singular); and He will disclose (anangelei-3rd person singular) to you what is to come. 14] ''He (ekeinos-masculine) shall glorify Me; for He will receive of Me (lempsetai-3rd person singular), and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes (lambanei-3rd person singular) of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

In that passage God the Holy Spirit is referred to 5 times in the masculine, and 7 times in the 3rd person. In other words, as 'He'. In the Greek.

Now, the word Spirit in verse 13 is in the neuter, because Spirit is immaterial and has no gender. Nevertheless, just as the first Person of the trinity is called 'Father' and referred to in the masculine, so also, the Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine. That's because the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity.

Note that an impersonal attribute cannot 'speak of Himself'. But a Person can.

An impersonal attribute can not hear. But a Person can.

In Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is called God. 'But Peter said, ''Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 ...You have not lied to men, but to God.''

You cannot lie to an impersonal attribute or force. But you can lie to a Person of the Godhead.

In Acts 10:19 the Holy Spirit speaks. 'And while Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Holy Spirit said to him, ''Behold, three men are looking for you. 20] ''But arise, go downstairs, and accompany them without misgivings; for I have sent them Myself.

And God the Holy Spirit speaks again in Acts 13:2. 'And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ''Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.''

Now, in Acts 10:19-20 and Acts 13:2, it is not an angel speaking, it is not God the Father speaking, and it is not Jesus Christ speaking. It is very specifically, God the Holy Spirit who is speaking.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:41 AM
 
376 posts, read 381,838 times
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The Gender of the Holy Spirit (No. 155)
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:23 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post

When a personal pronoun is in the masculine gender, it means 'He'.

Now listen. God is Spirit. And being Spirit God has no gender. Nevertheless, God is referred to in the Bible as 'He'. Not 'she', and not 'it.' God the Father - the first Person in the trinity for instance, is called 'Father' because He is the authority in the plan of salvation that the Persons of the trinity established.

The issue is whether the Holy Spirit is God. If you will but open your eyes and your mind gate to what was said in post #497, you will understand that the Holy Spirit - the third Person of the trinity, is God.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:42 AM
 
698 posts, read 597,419 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I suggest that you go back and read my posts and consider all that's been said.

Keep in mind that God the Father called Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8), Jesus identifed Himself as God and the Jews tried to kill Him for that reason (John 8:58-59). The apostles recognized Jesus as God. It is the preincarnate Jesus who is speaking in Isaiah 48.

There are people who are determined to deny the deity of Christ no matter how much it is shown to them from Scripture that He is God. It may be that you are one of those people. If however, you have not closed your mind to the facts, then go back over the posts in this thread, and do some research on Google. You'll find much information attesting to the deity of Jesus Christ.

Do yourself a favor and go into the following site which compares the scriptures which speak of God, and the scriptures which speak of Jesus who is God and see by the comparison that Jesus Christ IS God.

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate


See also, the following link.

Is Jesus Christ a man, or is he God? - KidExplorers.com / ChristianAnswers.Net
I don’t get your point.

*shrugs*

The “god” of the Hebrew Scriptures made Moses a “god” to Aaron in (Ex.7:1). So, based on this “line of reasoning” was Moses "god" as well?
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