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Old 01-22-2011, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,960 posts, read 14,094,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The apostles recognized Jesus as God.
Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.'

Jesus replied, 'You are blessed, Simon, son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you.'
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:50 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I don’t get your point.

*shrugs*

The “god” of the Hebrew Scriptures made Moses a “god” to Aaron in (Ex.7:1). So, based on this “line of reasoning” was Moses "god" as well?
In ancient times, people in authority such as judges were sometimes called 'god'. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ is The true God of the universe.

Your statement 'The “god” of the Hebrew Scriptures' leads me to assume that you don't even believe in God. I had assumed that you did, but simply didn't believe that Jesus is God.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:17 PM
 
309 posts, read 338,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, it is not. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the triune God. They are co-equal and co-eternal. Three Persons who are ONE God.






To the contrary. God the Holy Spirit is most definitely referred to in the masculine. As an example read the following passage. I will give the Greek word and the gender for all the personal pronouns that refer to the Holy Spirit.

John 16:5 ''But now I am going to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are you going?'' 6] ''But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7] ''But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you, but if I go I will send Him (auton-masculine) to you. 8] ''And having come, He (ekeinos-masculine) will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12] ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now. 13] ''But when He (ekeinos-masculine), the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide (odegesei- 3rd person singular) you unto all the truth; for He (lalesei-3rd person singular) will speak not of Himself (eautou-masculine), but whatever He may hear (akouei- 3rd person singular), He will speak (lalesei-3rd person singular); and He will disclose (anangelei-3rd person singular) to you what is to come. 14] ''He (ekeinos-masculine) shall glorify Me; for He will receive of Me (lempsetai-3rd person singular), and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes (lambanei-3rd person singular) of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

In that passage God the Holy Spirit is referred to 5 times in the masculine, and 7 times in the 3rd person. In other words, as 'He'. In the Greek.

Now, the word Spirit in verse 13 is in the neuter, because Spirit is immaterial and has no gender. Nevertheless, just as the first Person of the trinity is called 'Father' and referred to in the masculine, so also, the Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine. That's because the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity.

Note that an impersonal attribute cannot 'speak of Himself'. But a Person can.

An impersonal attribute can not hear. But a Person can.

In Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is called God. 'But Peter said, ''Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 ...You have not lied to men, but to God.''

You cannot lie to an impersonal attribute or force. But you can lie to a Person of the Godhead.

In Acts 10:19 the Holy Spirit speaks. 'And while Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Holy Spirit said to him, ''Behold, three men are looking for you. 20] ''But arise, go downstairs, and accompany them without misgivings; for I have sent them Myself.

And God the Holy Spirit speaks again in Acts 13:2. 'And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ''Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.''

Now, in Acts 10:19-20 and Acts 13:2, it is not an angel speaking, it is not God the Father speaking, and it is not Jesus Christ speaking. It is very specifically, God the Holy Spirit who is speaking.
Sir Mike...
You are correct in the 'masculine' rendering of 'he' in the verses you posted, but to try to build a Trinity foundation on the Morphology of Inflections in Greek grammar are unwaranted.

For example. In the verses you listed the following words are in the 'Feminine', but that is not to lead us into thinking these are talking about the literal Female sex.

V6 Sorrow, heart,
V7 Truth,
V8 sin, righteousness, judgment,
V9 sin
V10 righteousness
V11 judgement
V13 truth

Other abstract terms in scripture are in the 'feminine' also, such as:

wisdom
clouds

We are not to think that the 'bush' that Moses walked upon was to be thought of a a Male when we read Mat 12:26, for the word 'bush' is in the Masculine

Furthermore, we are not to think of the bush being a Female when talking of the SAME bush in Luke 20:37 and Act 7:35, for the word 'bush' in those verses are in the 'Feminine'.

These are just Inflections in speach. Strong's is pretty good at listing the different 'inflection' in his definitions. For instance, we have the Greek word for "him" in V7 of your example is "autos"

G846
αὐτός
autos

From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

This can speak of things or of people, it just depends upon the inflection.

Like the cup is an "it" in Mat 26:42,....

...also Jesus's BODY is an "it" in Mat 27:59. (but if the word was used in accordance to the Pronoun "Jesus", and NOT "body", then it would indeed be in the "masculine")

So yes you would be correct, it will most likely be shown in the 'Nueter' in those verses. But this word can be in the "masculine(he), feminine(she), and neuter(IT)".

But just because the Spirit is inflected in ANOTHER word to be a "he" or a "him" does not neccessarily mean that the word "spirit" itself is IS a He or a She, for the word Spirit (most likely in ALL occurrences, I haven't checked) is ALWAYS in the "neuter", because it has no "gender". Therefore, it is and IT.

Not to say that the Spirit of God is an IT, for the maculine forms of 'he, him' show Male. Just like the BODY is an IT, but Jesus is a He. So you are somewhat correct in what you are saying, but to use the words "masculine" and "feminine" in morphology to build your case. This is indeed a way you CAN with morphology but I think you are going about it the wrong way. I hope this helps.

It is a good thing that you are getting into it though.

Take care..
Joe
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:29 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,464 posts, read 22,599,417 times
Reputation: 14412
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Sir Mike...
You are correct in the 'masculine' rendering of 'he' in the verses you posted, but to try to build a Trinity foundation on the Morphology of Inflections in Greek grammar are unwaranted.

For example. In the verses you listed the following words are in the 'Feminine', but that is not to lead us into thinking these are talking about the literal Female sex.

V6 Sorrow, heart,
V7 Truth,
V8 sin, righteousness, judgment,
V9 sin
V10 righteousness
V11 judgement
V13 truth

Other abstract terms in scripture are in the 'feminine' also, such as:

wisdom
clouds

We are not to think that the 'bush' that Moses walked upon was to be thought of a a Male when we read Mat 12:26, for the word 'bush' is in the Masculine

Furthermore, we are not to think of the bush being a Female when talking of the SAME bush in Luke 20:37 and Act 7:35, for the word 'bush' in those verses are in the 'Feminine'.

These are just Inflections in speach. Strong's is pretty good at listing the different 'inflection' in his definitions. For instance, we have the Greek word for "him" in V7 of your example is "autos"

G846
αὐτός
autos

From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

This can speak of things or of people, it just depends upon the inflection.

Like the cup is an "it" in Mat 26:42,....

...also Jesus's BODY is an "it" in Mat 27:59. (but if the word was used in accordance to the Pronoun "Jesus", and NOT "body", then it would indeed be in the "masculine")

So yes you would be correct, it will most likely be shown in the 'Nueter' in those verses. But this word can be in the "masculine(he), feminine(she), and neuter(IT)".

But just because the Spirit is inflected in ANOTHER word to be a "he" or a "him" does not neccessarily mean that the word "spirit" itself is IS a He or a She, for the word Spirit (most likely in ALL occurrences, I haven't checked) is ALWAYS in the "neuter", because it has no "gender". Therefore, it is and IT.

Not to say that the Spirit of God is an IT, for the maculine forms of 'he, him' show Male. Just like the BODY is an IT, but Jesus is a He. So you are somewhat correct in what you are saying, but to use the words "masculine" and "feminine" in morphology to build your case. This is indeed a way you CAN with morphology but I think you are going about it the wrong way. I hope this helps.

It is a good thing that you are getting into it though.

Take care..
Joe
The proof of the trinity rests not upon the gender of a personal pronoun, but rather upon the solid weight of evidence presented throughout the entire Scriptures. The poster brought up the issue of gender, and I answered it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:51 AM
 
698 posts, read 597,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In ancient times, people in authority such as judges were sometimes called 'god'. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ is The true God of the universe.

Your statement 'The “god” of the Hebrew Scriptures' leads me to assume that you don't even believe in God. I had assumed that you did, but simply didn't believe that Jesus is God.
I do believe in the One, Single, and Only God, that is the Father of the Scriptures. I just don’t believe the historical Jesus was 'divine' or else person two of the Trinity. That's all.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:56 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,158,986 times
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Quote:
Most cults say Jesus is God and since God can't die that Christ didn't really die for our sins.

I have God's spirit in me and am called a son of God. But I don't call myself "God."

God told Moses that he (Moses) is God and Aaron his prophet. But does this make Moses the supreme, invisible Deity filling heaven and earth? Jesus is called God too and had God's spirit in Him and was called a Son of God too. But "God no one has ever seen" (John 1:18). They saw Jesus. No one ever saw God.

"nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." But not in all is there this knowledge. . . ."
(1 Corinthians 8:6-7 CLV)

This knowledge is not in the cults.
It is by faith one believes and God has revealed, manifesting to many He is Christ..... but one can only see this who are truly born again..... born of the Spirit, as God says, He seeks those who worship Him in spirit and truth, yet the natural mind with unbelief lingering.... the truth will be blinded by their unbelief, the natural mind.....

John 10:26-27
26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 8:47
He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

You say, "I have God's spirit in me and am called a son of God. But I don't call myself "God."

This is true, yet we read and have been told Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, heal the leopard, turned water into wine and no man or should I say "sons of God" which there are many..... has accomplished this but Christ who is God in the flesh.... this should be the revelation in showing Christ is God, no man has had the power to do all the supernatural things Christ did.... which only God can/could do.....

John 12:35-37
35. So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36. "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light " These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37. But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.


One last thought, God knowing Thomas' heart at that moment and time revealed Himself in Christ to Thomas.....
Listen to Thomas' very words, "

John 20:26-28
25. So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26. After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27. Then He said to Thomas, " Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

What a revelation Thomas received...... and many since Thomas (sons of God) have rejoice when God reveals Christ being.... "my Lord and my God!" I so remember that day myself.... Amen !
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:30 AM
 
376 posts, read 381,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hebrew 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Who got the sceptre? Christ...unto the Son...thy Throne, O God.
Christ's throne...Christ is God.
2 Cor 4:4
Satan is also called god.
But obiously he's not Father....
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:46 AM
 
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And then the eternal God was dead for 3 days and 3 nights
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:05 AM
 
376 posts, read 381,838 times
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John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

Father loves Himself and gives everything to Himself?
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:07 AM
 
151 posts, read 143,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

Father loves Himself and gives everything to Himself?
This is a very long post that is just going round circles, WHICH EVERYONE CAN NOT SEE THE TRUTH WHICH YOU JUST REVEAL AMONG OTHERS, INSTEAD OF JUST ASKING A QUESTION AND THE ANSWER THAT YOU GET DOES NOT ADD UP TO WHAT THE FATHER, THE ALMIGHTY HAS REVEAL TO YOU JUST MOVE ON, CAUSE ALL WE CAN DO IS JUST PLANT THE SEED AND THE FATHER ALMIGHTY WILL DO THE INCREASE ACCORDING TO HIS ORDER CAUSE WE ALL HAVE I OWN DESTINY. JESUS IS NOT THE CREATOR, O YEA THE NEW TEST TELLS THAT THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE AND ARE BEING DECEIVE, AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF THAT THE WHOLE WORLD IS BEING TAUGHT TO BELIEVE.
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