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Old 11-13-2009, 05:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
John 1:1 In the beginning (en arche-Greek) was (eimi) the Word (logos), and the Word was (eimi) with God, and the Word was (eimi) God.

Compare with the Hebrew in Gen.1:1

The Hebrew word that the spell check keeps editing is 'beresh i t h.'

Gen.1:1 In the beginning (bere****h), God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.

The Hebrew word bere****h is a prepositional phrase, combining the Hebrew preposition be, meaning ''in,'' and re****h meaning 'beginning.'' It literally means, ''In the beginning which was not the beginning.'' The universe had a beginning, but eternal God did not.

Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God (Ps. 90:2)

The first phrase in the Gospel of John brings to mind the creation of the universe which is recorded in Genesis 1:1.

In the beginning which was not the beginning (en arche) was(eimi) the Word, and the Word was (eimi) with God, and the Word was (eimi) God. (John 1:1)

The word 'eimi-to be,' is in the imperfect active indicative. It refers to existence. The imperfect tense describes continuous action in the past. In communicating to the human writer of the passage,The Holy Spirit used this tense in this verse to indicate that the Word, The Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:14), existed before the creation of the universe. This verb, repeated as it is, emphasizes the deity of Jesus Christ and His coexistence with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit throughout eternity. Jesus Christ did not have a beginning at any time in the past--He always ''was.''

Bere****h distinquishes eternity past from the beginning of the universe. There was no universe before Genesis 1:1; Neither matter, or energy, or time existed. There was only the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and the angelic creation. Genesis 1:1 takes us into the datelessness of eternity past and reveals the sudden origin of the universe.


And in John 1:1, the phrase 'In the beginning which was not the beginning' takes us into the datelessness of eternity past and shows us the preexistence of Jesus Christ.

( This post is based on material presented in ''Creation, Chaos & Restoration'' by Robert B. Thieme. JR. )
"From everlasting to everlasting"? Let me ask you Mike, If one everlasting is eternal, how can that everlasting end for another eternity to begin?

It is actually "from olam to olam thou art Elohim" or as the Greek Septuagint i.e. LXX (a translation from Hebrew into Greek has it: "from eon to eon thou art Theos" or "from age to age thou art Elohim."

"Eternity past"? Another unscriptural term.

What "In beginning" actually means in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 is the beginning of the treatise at hand. The definite article is missing in both verses. Neither Moses nor John are trying to show an eternalness to God or Christ.

Mike, when are you going to start approaching with "sound words"?

1Ti 6:3-5 If anyone is teaching differently and is not approaching with sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching in accord with devoutness, (4) he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions, (5) altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."

Last edited by Eusebius; 11-13-2009 at 06:15 AM..
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I guess ChrystyGirl has conceded to the debate.

Anyone else care to answer the question?

Why was God and Christ given the same attributes in Daniel and Revelation?
Christy hasn't conceded anything.....Christy is still waiting for her question to be answered....and someone (I'm not mentioning any names) keeps AVOIDING answering it.

Christy will continue to wait....but Christy thinks whales will fly first before that happens.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
I believe Jesus is a diety, so Mike, I am speaking up.

I do not believe Jesus is the Father, and that while Jesus was on earth, there was no "Jehovah God" in heaven, I believe Jehovah, his father, raised him up.

Jesus is a diety because he was not created, but was brought forth, begotten from Jehovah . . .different than created. . . . to put it simply, Jesus is made from "Jehovah" stuff . . which makes him unique/different, and different from anything else . . . He and His father, share the same make-up, the same nature . . .
When was Jesus begotten? Do some careful research before you answer this.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He's talking about you you know?
Well....whom do you think I was referring to????? ROFL!
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:22 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 14,895,223 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Why was the Son presented to God in Daniel?
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Why was the Son presented to God in Daniel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Why was Jesus and God presented in the scripture with the same attributes?

No one can answer this question, therefore all of you have failed.
I already answered that. Just because you didn't like my answer does not mean "No one can answer this question."

Christ is the image of God (2 Cor.4:4).

When Christ took a coin and asked whose image is this on the coin, they said Cesar (cf Matthew 22:20,21) . Now was that image literally Cesar? No. That image represented the power Caesar had.

Likewise, Christ being the image of God does not mean He is THAT God. But He represents all the authority God has and which God gave to Christ until . . . (1 Cor.15:24).

So Christ in Revelation is the image of the vision Daniel had of God. God does not literally have hair and grey at that! God is not a man. "God no one has ever seen. The Son who is in the bosom of the Father unfolds Him."
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:28 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,466 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"From everlasting to everlasting"? Let me ask you Mike, If one everlasting is eternal, how can that everlasting end for another eternity to begin?

It is actually "from olam to olam thou art Elohim" or as the Greek Septuaging (a translation from Hebrew into Greek has it: "from eon to eon thou art Theos" or "from age to age thou art Elohim."

"Eternity past"? Another unscriptural term.

What "In beginning" actually means in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 is the beginning of the treatise at hand. The definite article is missing in both verses. Neither Moses nor John are trying to show an eternalness to God or Christ.

Mike, when are you going to start coming with "sound words"?

1Ti 6:3-5 If anyone is teaching differently and is not approaching with sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching in accord with devoutness, (4) he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions, (5) altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."
Pastor Robert B. Thieme JR., whose work this is based on, majored in Greek at the University of Arizona, then attended Dallas Theological Seminary where he graduated summa *** laude. There he acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and further study of the original languages, making a total of nine years of Greek and five of Hebrew.
After seminary, he became pastor of Berachah Church for over fifty years, and where his isagogical, categorical and exegetical teaching of the Word of God became a worldwide ministry. So much for your attempts to discredit sound doctrinal teaching.

Last edited by Michael Way; 11-13-2009 at 06:54 AM..
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,856,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Why was the Son presented to God in Daniel?




I already answered that. Just because you didn't like my answer does not mean "No one can answer this question."

Christ is the image of God (2 Cor.4:4).

When Christ took a coin and asked whose image is this on the coin, they said Cesar (cf Matthew 22:20,21) . Now was that image literally Cesar? No. That image represented the power Caesar had.

Likewise, Christ being the image of God does not mean He is THAT God. But He represents all the authority God has and which God gave to Christ until . . . (1 Cor.15:24).

So Christ in Revelation is the image of the vision Daniel had of God. God does not literally have hair and grey at that! God is not a man. "God no one has ever seen. The Son who is in the bosom of the Father unfolds Him."
Very nice....but you should have waited until he answered the question that was posed to him....which he CAN'T answer and still believe Jesus is GOD.
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:48 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
30,466 posts, read 22,599,417 times
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I will again ask that those of you reading this thread, who recognize that Jesus Christ is God, and that God is triune in nature, make yourselves known. I really don't want this thread turned into an argument with a couple of people who are posting here who claim to be Christian but yet deny the Deity of Christ. I'm sure there are a lot more people reading the posts on this forum who don't bother to post, so start posting. Make yourselves known. If you recognize the Deity of Christ, let it be known.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:12 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 14,895,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Pastor Robert B. Thieme JR., whose work this is based on, majored in Greek at the University of Arizona, then attended Dallas Theological Seminary where he graduated summa *** laude. There he acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and further study of the original languages, making a total of nine years of Greek and five of Hebrew.
After seminary, he became pastor of Berachah Church for over fifty years, and where his isagogical, categorical and exegetical teaching of the Word of God became a worldwide ministry. So much for your attempts to discredit sound doctrinal teaching.
So much for you using the fallacy Ad Verecundiam or appealing to authority. It proves nothing.

The authorities the Jews appealed to were the Pharisees and Sadducees and scribes in Christ's day. See where that got them and Christ?
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:20 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 14,895,223 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I will again ask that those of you reading this thread, who recognize that Jesus Christ is God, and that God is triune in nature, make yourselves known. I really don't want this thread turned into an argument with a couple of people who are posting here who claim to be Christian but yet deny the Deity of Christ. I'm sure there are a lot more people reading the posts on this forum who don't bother to post, so start posting. Make yourselves known. If you recognize the Deity of Christ, let it be known.
Quote:
John 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

That verse precludes Jesus from being either the Father or being God. It also precludes Jesus from being the disciple's Father or the disciple's God. Jesus was in effect saying, "I am not your Father and I am not your God. Your Father and your God is above. I am going to where your Father and to where your God is. I am not ascending to myself.

Here are some more non-fuzzy verses where Christ is not God:

My God My God! Why didst Thou forsake Me?" (Mt.27:46; Mk.15:34).

"I (Christ) have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God" (Rev.3:2).

"The one who is conquering, him will I (Christ) be making a pillar in the temple of My God...and I will be writing on him the name of My God,and the name of the city of My God...which is descending out of heaven from My God” (Rev.3:12).

“The four animals and twenty-four elders make a distinction between Christ and their God” (see Rev.5:9,10).
_____
The apostle Paul knew Jesus had a God for he said:
"God sending His own Son" (Rom.8:3) does not say "God sent Himself".
"Blessed is the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Cor.1:3).

"...in my prayers that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph.1:16).

Paul makes a distinction between Christ and his God..."I am thanking my God through Jesus Christ" (Rom.1:8). (see 1:9 too).
"I am thanking my God always concerning you over the grace of God which is being given you in Christ Jesus" (1Cor.1:4).

"The head of the woman is the man,
The Head of every man is Christ,
The Head of Christ is God" (see 1Cor.11:3).
Man tells the woman what to do. they are distinct.
Christ tells the man what to do. they are distinct.
God tells Christ what to do. They are distinct.

“For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, 6 nevertheless for us there is one God , the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him 7 but not in all is there this knowledge" (1Corinthians 8:5-7)

In the above verse, God is the source of all that is and Christ is the channel through which all came as denoted by the words "out of Whom" and "through Whom." Not in all is there this knowledge. Is this knowledge in you? It is in me.
____
Peter knew Jesus had a God for he said:
"Blessed be the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Pet.1:3).
____
The writer of Hebrews knew Jesus had a God for he wrote:
Jesus said "In the summary of the scroll it is written concerning Me--To do Thy will, O God." (Heb.10:7).
Now then, it is all too evident that Christ has a God and this God sent Christ and anointed Christ.

So how are we to take the verses which state Jesus is God? As you well know, "God" is a title. Christ is allowed to carry the title "God" because Christ is a subjector or placer. Even Jesus told the Jews that they can carry the title "God" in John 10:34. Those people who carried the title "God" or "Elohim" were the ones subjecting the people to the law of Moses as judges and arbiters.

Moses was given the title "God" as well (Ex.4:16) and Aaron was to be his prophet. So we have a prophet/God relationship. Yet we know that Moses was not truly """GOD""" in the absolute sense of the word. Moses was not a mode of God. Moses was not the One, the God Who was sending him. Moses was sent. He was not the sender.

"God sent His Son"

In Him in Whom our lot was cast also,
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