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Dan was son of Jacob (Israel) and Bilhah , and Hashim was Dan’s only son. But later the tribe of Dan became banished and lost inheritance, as the tribe of Dan held up an image of the dead were God banished them so the inheritance went to Naphtali ....... Hashim is thought to be the Shuham in Numbers 26;42
Both wrong. Hushim was the young sister of Dan, who he adopted after their mother Bilhah, who had been raped by Reuben the firstborn of Israel, had died. Hushim was to later marry Shararaim from the tribe of Benjamin, to who she bore two sons, before he divorced her, and moved into the land of Moab, before the Israelite went down into Egypt.
Hushim's two sons were Abitub and Elpaal, who are also called Huppim and Shuppim. See 1 Chronicles 8: where Benjamin and Dan are counted together.
Both wrong. Hushim was the young sister of Dan, who he adopted after their mother Bilhah, who had been raped by Reuben the firstborn of Israel, had died. Hushim was to later marry Shararaim from the tribe of Benjamin, to who she bore two sons, before he divorced her, and moved into the land of Moab, before the Israelite went down into Egypt.
Hushim's two sons were Abitub and Elpaal, who are also called Huppim and Shuppim. See 1 Chronicles 8: where Benjamin and Dan are counted together.
You just pulling that out of your ear, or do you have some Bible verses to back that up?
You just pulling that out of your ear, or do you have some Bible verses to back that up?
The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 19b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house.
The Hebrew term “BEN” which is translated as sons, can mean male descendants, or adopted sons and grandsons, and the appellation “BEN” is even given to a daughter of a man who died without ever siring a son, and through which daughter, that man’s descendants are recorded.
It was the Hebrew custom for the daughters of sonless fathers, to marry their cousins or second cousins in order to bear male descendants to carry on their father’s name. We see this in Tamar, the beautiful daughter (Or adopted daughter) of Absalom, who married Rehoboam her cousin, and son of her uncle Solomon.
Eleazar, the great grandson of Levi, died without ever siring a son, his daughters married their cousins, who were descendant of Kish the brother of their father Eleazar. The daughters of the sonless Zelophehad married their cousins also.
Another was Hushim ben Dan, the adopted daughter of the sterile giant, Dan. Hushim who married Shaharaim, her cousin, from the tribe of Benjamin [See 1st Chronicles 7: 12, and 8: 8-11.] to whom she bore two sons Abitub and Elpaal and through whose son ‘Abitub,’ (ABI, means 'Father,') the tribe of Dan are counted. Her other son, “Elpaal’ the son of Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin, was the ancestor of King Saul, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite. See 1st Samuel 9: 2.
Hushim, from whom the tribe of Dan is counted, was born the daughter of “Bilhah” the mother of Dan the sterile giant, after she had been raped by Reuben the firstborn son of Israel=Jacob.
Samson, whose ancestor was Bilhah the mother of Dan, was known as a great womaniser, but Like the giant Dan, he too was apparently sterile as he appears to have died childless, even Manoah, the father of Samson appears to have been sterile, and his wife was only able to conceive after being visited by a messenger of the Lord.
From the Testament of Reuben, the first born of Jacob/Israel 3: 11; “Had I not seen Bilhah bathing in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity. For my mind taking in the thought of the woman’s nakedness, suffered me not ‘to sleep’ until I had wrought the abominable thing. For while Jacob our father had gone to Isaac his father when we were in Eder, near to Ephrath in Bethlehem, Bilhah became drunk [During the harvest festival] and was asleep uncovered in her chamber. Having therefore gone in and beheld her nakedness, I wrought the impiety without her perceiving it, and leaving her sleeping I departed.
From the Testament of Benjamin 1: 3; “As Isaac was born to Abraham in his old age, so was I to Jacob, and since Rachel my mother died in giving me birth, I had no milk: therefore, I was suckled by Bilhah her hand maid. [Bilhah, the mother of Dan, who had been raped by Reuben, was apparently lactating at that time.] Hushim, was the child born of Bilhah from the rape of Reuben and she was adopted by her older brother, the sterile giant Dan after the death of their mother Bilhah.
In Numbers 7; we see 12 0f the 13 tribes, which excludes the tribe of Levi, and they are (1) Judah (2) Issachar (3) Zebulun (4) Reuben (5) Simeon (6) Gad (7) Ephraim (8) Manasseh (9) Benjamin (10) Dan (11) Asher 912) Naphtali.
In Numbers 13: 1-16; Moses chose one man from each of the 12 tribes, and sent them to spy out the promised land, which again excluded the 13th tribe of Levi.
In Revelation 7: 5-8; we see the 144000 chosen ones, which consists of 12 groups of 12000 chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel, which included the two tribes chosen by Jacob on his death bed as his own sons, Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh. The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation 7: 5-8; are, Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh [The son of Joseph] Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, [Joseph the tribe of Ephraim of the blessing of firstborn] and Benjamin [The 12th tribe that had been lost.] But the tribe of Dan is not mentioned.
Could this be the reason why Jacob/Israel adopted Joseph’s two sons as his own, and divided Joseph into the two separate tribes, of Ephraim/Joseph and Manasseh, because he knew the origin of the tribe of Dan?
The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 19b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house.
The Hebrew term “BEN” which is translated as sons, can mean male descendants, or adopted sons and grandsons, and the appellation “BEN” is even given to a daughter of a man who died without ever siring a son, and through which daughter, that man’s descendants are recorded.
It was the Hebrew custom for the daughters of sonless fathers, to marry their cousins or second cousins in order to bear male descendants to carry on their father’s name. We see this in Tamar, the beautiful daughter (Or adopted daughter) of Absalom, who married Rehoboam her cousin, and son of her uncle Solomon.
Eleazar, the great grandson of Levi, died without ever siring a son, his daughters married their cousins, who were descendant of Kish the brother of their father Eleazar. The daughters of the sonless Zelophehad married their cousins also.
Another was Hushim ben Dan, the adopted daughter of the sterile giant, Dan. Hushim who married Shaharaim, her cousin, from the tribe of Benjamin [See 1st Chronicles 7: 12, and 8: 8-11.] to whom she bore two sons Abitub and Elpaal and through whose son ‘Abitub,’ (ABI, means 'Father,') the tribe of Dan are counted. Her other son, “Elpaal’ the son of Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin, was the ancestor of King Saul, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite. See 1st Samuel 9: 2.
Hushim, from whom the tribe of Dan is counted, was born the daughter of “Bilhah” the mother of Dan the sterile giant, after she had been raped by Reuben the firstborn son of Israel=Jacob.
Samson, whose ancestor was Bilhah the mother of Dan, was known as a great womaniser, but Like the giant Dan, he too was apparently sterile as he appears to have died childless, even Manoah, the father of Samson appears to have been sterile, and his wife was only able to conceive after being visited by a messenger of the Lord.
From the Testament of Reuben, the first born of Jacob/Israel 3: 11; “Had I not seen Bilhah bathing in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity. For my mind taking in the thought of the woman’s nakedness, suffered me not ‘to sleep’ until I had wrought the abominable thing. For while Jacob our father had gone to Isaac his father when we were in Eder, near to Ephrath in Bethlehem, Bilhah became drunk [During the harvest festival] and was asleep uncovered in her chamber. Having therefore gone in and beheld her nakedness, I wrought the impiety without her perceiving it, and leaving her sleeping I departed.
From the Testament of Benjamin 1: 3; “As Isaac was born to Abraham in his old age, so was I to Jacob, and since Rachel my mother died in giving me birth, I had no milk: therefore, I was suckled by Bilhah her hand maid. [Bilhah, the mother of Dan, who had been raped by Reuben, was apparently lactating at that time.] Hushim, was the child born of Bilhah from the rape of Reuben and she was adopted by her older brother, the sterile giant Dan after the death of their mother Bilhah.
In Numbers 7; we see 12 0f the 13 tribes, which excludes the tribe of Levi, and they are (1) Judah (2) Issachar (3) Zebulun (4) Reuben (5) Simeon (6) Gad (7) Ephraim (8) Manasseh (9) Benjamin (10) Dan (11) Asher 912) Naphtali.
In Numbers 13: 1-16; Moses chose one man from each of the 12 tribes, and sent them to spy out the promised land, which again excluded the 13th tribe of Levi.
In Revelation 7: 5-8; we see the 144000 chosen ones, which consists of 12 groups of 12000 chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel, which included the two tribes chosen by Jacob on his death bed as his own sons, Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh. The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation 7: 5-8; are, Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh [The son of Joseph] Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, [Joseph the tribe of Ephraim of the blessing of firstborn] and Benjamin [The 12th tribe that had been lost.] But the tribe of Dan is not mentioned.
Could this be the reason why Jacob/Israel adopted Joseph’s two sons as his own, and divided Joseph into the two separate tribes, of Ephraim/Joseph and Manasseh, because he knew the origin of the tribe of Dan?
That's what I'm here for mate. That which is in the pot has become stagnant, and needs stirring to get it bubbling again.
Below is the response that I received from an exegetist friend, as to his belief of the story of Reuben and Bilhah the concubine of his father Jacob, which response, I consider to be no more that a load of garbage.
[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).
Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.
According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]
As I have already said, the response that he sent, as far as I am concerned, is “Nothing more than a load of Cod’s wallop.”
What are your views concerning the biblical fact that Reuben the firstborn of Israel defiled his father's bed, by laying with Bilhah, the concubine of his father?
That's what I'm here for mate. That which is in the pot has become stagnant, and needs stirring to get it bubbling again.
Below is the response that I received from an exegetist friend, as to his belief of the story of Reuben and Bilhah the concubine of his father Jacob, which response, I consider to be no more that a load of garbage.
[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).
Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.
According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]
As I have already said, the response that he sent, as far as I am concerned, is “Nothing more than a load of Cod’s wallop.”
What are your views concerning the biblical fact that Reuben the firstborn of Israel defiled his father's bed, by laying with Bilhah, the concubine of his father?
Unlike Baptistfun, since I have not researched it, I am not qualified to argue for or against it, but what’s your endgame in all this?...
Unlike Baptistfun, since I have not researched it, I am not qualified to argue for or against it, but what’s your endgame in all this?...
As I refuse to follow, or lead any man, if it is the endgame that you think might be, and that is what you wish to see, then by all means walk beside me and you WILL see.
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