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Old 11-21-2009, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,682,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
David nor Moses nor Elijah or Abraham was resurrected. Just many of the bodies of the saints came forth.
How do you know this?

Quote:
That is not the resurrection of the just and unjust.
I never said it was. This is the resurrection of the just.....Old Testament saints delling in paradise...aka Abraham's Bosom.
Those before Christ.

Notice that John saw only the souls of the martyrs. This was the "first resurrection" group who were raised at the beginning of the millennium period. It was obviously martyrs whose bodies were dead, but whose "souls" were conscious and were allowed to "come to life" (be taken out of their captivity in Hades) and reign with Christ during the millennium period.

It doesn't say whether they were given their new immortal bodies yet or not. But it does call this the "first resurrection."
It was the first group of disembodied souls who were raised out of Hades. I believe the Matt 27 text is the event that this text is pointing to that group of "saints" who came out of their tombs at Jesus' resurreciton and "appeared to many" in Jerusalem. They ascended with Christ 40 days later

Eph. 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

This I believe to be the "souls under the altar" mentioned in Rev. 6:9-10. The point we are making here is that these "souls" had consciousness BEFORE the final resurrection in AD 70. If they didn't get their new immortal bodies until AD 70, then they were disembodied "souls" that were still conscious.

Rev 6:9-10 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the SOULS of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they CRIED OUT with a LOUD VOICE, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Here we see disembodied "SOULS" in the heavenly temple (under the altar) BEFORE the final resurrection and judgment, while life is still going on as usual on the earth. These martyrs, whose bodies were clearly "dead," have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred, and are crying out for justice against their murderers. They are very obviously "conscious" without their bodies in the heavenly realm before the final resurrection when they would have received their new immortal bodies. If this "soul sleep" idea is correct as you appear to allude to Eusebius, this passage would be totally inexplicable, hopelessly cryptic, and a blatant misrepresentation of reality in the unseen spiritual realm.

Rev 22:15-16 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

This above is The TEXT THAT SEALS THE FATE for not only the "soul sleep" doctrine that many dispensationalists attest to, but Annihilationism and Universalism as well. Notice that this text is talking about the state of the dead AFTER the final (AD 70) resurrection has taken place. The righteous have their new immortal bodies and are INSIDE the heavenly city. The unsaved are still conscious and are OUTSIDE the gates of the heavenly city. The unsaved did not get "immortality" at the resurrection event we are analysing, yet they are still conscious, so this necessarily implies that "immortality" is not the same thing as "consciousness of the soul." These unsaved folks are still conscious after the resurrection, even though their bodies have died and they did not receive "immortality" at the resurrection. They remain consciously OUTSIDE of heaven forever after the resurreciton event. This not only refutes the "soul sleep" idea, but shows that the wicked do not cease to exist (Annihilationism), nor are they given a "second chance" to repent and accept Christ and "ENTER" into heaven (Universalism).

Quote:
I already did reply to you about swiftly. It is all as it relates to John being in the day of the Lord. In that day things occur swiftly. God will not drag out judgments upon mankind interminably but with swiftness.
This, my dear brother, is absolutley contrary to the text, but is also consistent with from what I have seen you guilty of time and time again, and that is first, the misrepresentation of the scripture, but secondly, a blatant attempt to rewrite and add to what has already been written down for you. Why on earth and Heaven do you still continue to push your dishonest views and lies about the scripture?

You are aware of the judgements that entail to those who do this aren't you? Please, repent from it.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-21-2009 at 06:11 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-21-2009, 06:56 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,835,283 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
David nor Moses nor Elijah or Abraham was resurrected. Just many of the bodies of the saints came forth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
How do you know this?
Because Peter, on the day of Pentacost said David's tomb is still with us and has been acquainted with decay but Jesus rose from the dead without seeing decay. So David was not in that small resurrection. And Jesus said Luk 13:28-29 "There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside." (29) And they will be arriving from east and west and from north and south and will be made to recline in the kingdom of God."
Neither Abraham nor Isaac nor Jacob and ALL the prophet did not resurrect that day and enter into the kingdom of God to be set up in Israel for the millennium.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote: That is not the resurrection of the just and unjust.
Quote:
I never said it was. This is the resurrection of the just.....Old Testament saints delling in paradise...aka Abraham's Bosom.
Those before Christ.
The only paradise to be set up is when the Lord comes in His kingdom as the thief on the cross knew and Christ knew. It is in that kingdom.

Quote:
Notice that John saw only the souls of the martyrs. This was the "first resurrection" group who were raised at the beginning of the millennium period. It was obviously martyrs whose bodies were dead, but whose "souls" were conscious and were allowed to "come to life" (be taken out of their captivity in Hades) and reign with Christ during the millennium period.
John saw the souls of the martyrs IN THE FUTURE DAY OF THE LORD. And it is just symbolism. He did not literally see souls under a literal altar. It is just symbolism for the saints being offered to God in martyrdom as if they were sacrificed on an altar and their blood ran under the altar.

Quote:
It doesn't say whether they were given their new immortal bodies yet or not. But it does call this the "first resurrection."
It was the first group of disembodied souls who were raised out of Hades. I believe the Matt 27 text is the event that this text is pointing to that group of "saints" who came out of their tombs at Jesus' resurreciton and "appeared to many" in Jerusalem. They ascended with Christ 40 days later
You've been reading too many strange Christian novels. LOL. Hades is Greek for the Hebrew Sheol which is the grave in which a whole person is entombed with one dies. The Bible does not say they ascended with Christ 40 days later. John puts that to rest when he wrote:
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Quote:
Eph. 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Quote:

This I believe to be the "souls under the altar" mentioned in Rev. 6:9-10. The point we are making here is that these "souls" had consciousness BEFORE the final resurrection in AD 70. If they didn't get their new immortal bodies until AD 70, then they were disembodied "souls" that were still conscious.
This is getting too freaky. When Christ ascended up on high it doesn't say He led the captives from under the altar to heaven. It says He captured captivity which I belive was the law which Israel was enslaved to. The lower parts of the earth is the tomb which He came out of.

Quote:
Rev 6:9-10 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the SOULS of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they CRIED OUT with a LOUD VOICE, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Quote:

Here we see disembodied "SOULS" in the heavenly temple (under the altar) BEFORE the final resurrection and judgment, while life is still going on as usual on the earth. These martyrs, whose bodies were clearly "dead," have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred, and are crying out for justice against their murderers. They are very obviously "conscious" without their bodies in the heavenly realm before the final resurrection when they would have received their new immortal bodies. If this "soul sleep" idea is correct as you appear to allude to Eusebius, this passage would be totally inexplicable, hopelessly cryptic, and a blatant misrepresentation of reality in the unseen spiritual realm.
It is just symbolism. In Genesis do you really believe that Abel's blood grew a mouth and cried from the ground? LOL!

Besides, as stated before, John saw all of the above as a future even in the day of the Lord which is yet future. Those people haven't even been killed yet.

Quote:
Rev 22:15-16 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Quote:

This above is The TEXT THAT SEALS THE FATE for not only the "soul sleep" doctrine that many dispensationalists attest to, but Annihilationism and Universalism as well. Notice that this text is talking about the state of the dead AFTER the final (AD 70) resurrection has taken place. The righteous have their new immortal bodies and are INSIDE the heavenly city. The unsaved are still conscious and are OUTSIDE the gates of the heavenly city. The unsaved did not get "immortality" at the resurrection event we are analysing, yet they are still conscious, so this necessarily implies that "immortality" is not the same thing as "consciousness of the soul." These unsaved folks are still conscious after the resurrection, even though their bodies have died and they did not receive "immortality" at the resurrection. They remain consciously OUTSIDE of heaven forever after the resurreciton event. This not only refutes the "soul sleep" idea, but shows that the wicked do not cease to exist (Annihilationism), nor are they given a "second chance" to repent and accept Christ and "ENTER" into heaven (Universalism).
Surely you are dreaming. Those people, in that future day of the new earth will not be alowed into the Holy City Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth.
Just as during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth which is yet to come, He also will cast out of the kingdom all who are offending and they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth. But they sure as heck are not disembodies souls! LOL!



Quote:
This, my dear brother, is absolutley contrary to the text, but is also consistent with from what I have seen you guilty of time and time again, and that is first, the misrepresentation of the scripture, but secondly, a blatant attempt to rewrite and add to what has already been written down for you. Why on earth and Heaven do you still continue to push your dishonest views and lies about the scripture?

You are aware of the judgements that entail to those who do this aren't you? Please, repent from it.
I believe you are deceived about what I write. You are the one that needs to repent. I mean . . . really . . . gheesh!
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,682,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Because Peter, on the day of Pentacost said David's tomb is still with us and has been acquainted with decay but Jesus rose from the dead without seeing decay. So David was not in that small resurrection.
Here is where you are mistaken about the interpretation of this David...who is on the throne of David? Jesus.
Also, no one is talking here about an ascension of David, this is just a resurrection AFTER Christ's resurrection. David's body is dead, decaying and corruptible, and is most likely still in the grave now, bones and all, but what body is resurrected?

The incorruptible one. 1 Cor 15.

Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Death....the last enemy. What Paul expected in his day. "at hand....quickly"

Also, you must remember that no one recognized Jesus until they saw His hands and feet, and then, they recognized Him.
Take special note of that Eusebius.

Quote:
And Jesus said Luk 13:28-29 "There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside." (29) And they will be arriving from east and west and from north and south and will be made to recline in the kingdom of God."
Neither Abraham nor Isaac nor Jacob and ALL the prophet did not resurrect that day and enter into the kingdom of God to be set up in Israel for the millennium.
Again, you are wrong in your interpretation of this. These men, are souls, awaiting their incorruptible bodies as Paul taught and expected himself. These prophets and saints are given judgement at the beginning of the 1000 years, however, the souls in Rev 20 do NOT judge the dead "given up" until the end of the 1000 years. Read the chapter again.

Quote:
The only paradise to be set up is when the Lord comes in His kingdom as the thief on the cross knew and Christ knew. It is in that kingdom.
That paradise is before Christ goes into Hades and empties it.

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

No other generation other than:

Speaking to the Priests in front of Jesus:

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation

Quote:
John saw the souls of the martyrs IN THE FUTURE DAY OF THE LORD. And it is just symbolism. He did not literally see souls under a literal altar. It is just symbolism for the saints being offered to God in martyrdom as if they were sacrificed on an altar and their blood ran under the altar.
Say what? "he didn't see literal souls..."

You have got to be kidding me?

Quote:
The Bible does not say they ascended with Christ 40 days later. John puts that to rest when he wrote:
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."
Jesus is the one speaking here in John 3:13 and is pre-cruxifiction....strawman Eusebius.

Quote:
It is just symbolism. In Genesis do you really believe that Abel's blood grew a mouth and cried from the ground?
God hears everything dear brother...even blood that cries.
And yes, it is symbolism of his death and the murder commited by Cain.
I don't understand your arguement here.

Quote:
Besides, as stated before, John saw all of the above as a future even in the day of the Lord which is yet future. Those people haven't even been killed yet.
LOL

Quote:
Surely you are dreaming. Those people, in that future day of the new earth will not be alowed into the Holy City Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth.
Another LOL...that city, that kingdom is where?

In your midst...within you...in your hearts..inscribed. Luke 17:21

Nice try, and I commend you for that...but you have failed once again.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-21-2009 at 07:39 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,178,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I never said it was. This is the resurrection of the just.....Old Testament saints delling in paradise...aka Abraham's Bosom.
Those before Christ.
But Revelation 1:5 states: "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,"

So how is anyone raised who has truly been dead from OT times before Christ if he is the firstborn of the dead?

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,"

So how is anyone raised before Christ?

BTW I think there is a comma after Christ in 1 Cor. 15:23 - Christ (firstborn of the dead), the first fruits, and after those...
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:20 PM
 
73 posts, read 108,278 times
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good report but again, no one has figured out failed predictions
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,682,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But Revelation 1:5 states: "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,"

So how is anyone raised who has truly been dead from OT times before Christ if he is the firstborn of the dead?

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,"

So how is anyone raised before Christ?

BTW I think there is a comma after Christ in 1 Cor. 15:23 - Christ (firstborn of the dead), the first fruits, and after those...
Hey Kat,

No one is raised before Christ. Matt 27 says that the graves opened after His resurrection. In the text, there are no such things as commas, and the firstfruits are plural indeed, so this has to be the saints raised after His resurrection.

Every saint and prophet of the Old Testament knew their temporary fate, and that was Sheol/Hades. And they all waited for Christ to raise them.
They waited for their redemption.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:12 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,835,283 times
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Before I answer, how come when I click on the little "multi-quote this message" in the lower right hand side that it doesn't? Why do I have to copy and paste what I wrote into the new reply?
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,762,011 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Before I answer, how come when I click on the little "multi-quote this message" in the lower right hand side that it doesn't? Why do I have to copy and paste what I wrote into the new reply?
When you want to "multi-quote" a reply by you, that means you want to use different posts for one reply...so click on all the posts you want to quote in one reply, and don't click the "multi-quote" icon on the post you want to use, click on the "quote" icon only and it will put all the posts that you clicked the "multi-quote" icon onto the last post that you clicked just the "quote" icon.....hope you understand that.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:44 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,835,283 times
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O.K. but Verna, if I click just the "Quote" icon to your reply to me, it only will just quote what you wrote, not what I wrote you were replying to. Is there a work-around this?
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,682,902 times
Reputation: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Before I answer, how come when I click on the little "multi-quote this message" in the lower right hand side that it doesn't? Why do I have to copy and paste what I wrote into the new reply?

Hmmm...I have no idea...it seems to work for me. Did you try emailing ADMIN?
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