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Old 11-22-2009, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. but Verna, if I click just the "Quote" icon to your reply to me, it only will just quote what you wrote, not what I wrote you were replying to. Is there a work-around this?
Verna is correct, Eusebius. What browser aare you using? The sequence is just go to all the posts you want to quote first . . . BEFORE you select the quote button you want to reply to first. You ONLY hit the multi-quote button to "mark" the ones to include . . . THEN go to the post you intend to respond to first and hit the Quote button..
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Old 11-22-2009, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey Kat,

No one is raised before Christ. Matt 27 says that the graves opened after His resurrection. In the text, there are no such things as commas, and the firstfruits are plural indeed, so this has to be the saints raised after His resurrection.

Every saint and prophet of the Old Testament knew their temporary fate, and that was Sheol/Hades. And they all waited for Christ to raise them.
They waited for their redemption.
Ok because in the post I quoted you had said before christ so I thought you were saying they were raised before Christ was raised.

Thanks for the clarification.

However.. one more question:
In Matt 27:51 the veil is torn right as Christ's spirit is given up.. then in 52:The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

So in 53 it seems to say that Christ is raised after they rise from their graves but before they go into the city. Kinda makes it seem as if Christ's death and resurrection had nothing to do with his body hanging on the cross. That it was in the twinkling of an eye that he was raised incorruptible yet his body remained on the cross...

Sorry if this is off topic... perhaps I should start a new thread?
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Old 11-22-2009, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok because in the post I quoted you had said before christ so I thought you were saying they were raised before Christ was raised.

Thanks for the clarification.

However.. one more question:
In Matt 27:51 the veil is torn right as Christ's spirit is given up.. then in 52:The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

So in 53 it seems to say that Christ is raised after they rise from their graves but before they go into the city. Kinda makes it seem as if Christ's death and resurrection had nothing to do with his body hanging on the cross. That it was in the twinkling of an eye that he was raised incorruptible yet his body remained on the cross...

Sorry if this is off topic... perhaps I should start a new thread?
Hey Kat,

No this isn't off topic, because we are talking about the resurrection, first and last.

Let's look at Matt 27 again:

Verse 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew had a habit of bouncing around in time stamps, so it is obvious he is trying to tell us something here, that was later revealed to us in Rev 20...the "unveiling/apocalypse".

I think what you misunderstood me about saying "before Christ" was that they were the saints that died before Christ. I hope that cleared things up in that regard.

Remember when He appeared to His disciples....they didn't recognize Him.
Only until He showed them His hands and feet did they. I believe Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, explained this when he spoke of the two different bodies, corruptible and incorruptible. Iron sharpens Iron...and that is what we, you and I that are Preterists, are doing.

Good thoughts.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-22-2009 at 04:36 PM.. Reason: spelling again :(
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Old 11-22-2009, 05:36 PM
 
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Quote:
:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Because Peter, on the day of Pentacost said David's tomb is still with us and has been acquainted with decay but Jesus rose from the dead without seeing decay. So David was not in that small resurrection.
Quote:
Here is where you are mistaken about the interpretation of this David...who is on the throne of David? Jesus.
Also, no one is talking here about an ascension of David, this is just a resurrection AFTER Christ's resurrection. David's body is dead, decaying and corruptible, and is most likely still in the grave now, bones and all, but what body is resurrected?

The incorruptible one. 1 Cor 15.

Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Death....the last enemy. What Paul expected in his day. "at hand....quickly"

Also, you must remember that no one recognized Jesus until they saw His hands and feet, and then, they recognized Him.
Take special note of that Eusebius.
We were talking about the resurrection of the many saints after Christ came out of the tomb. So how can I be wrong? Peter, many days after Christ rose from the dead, stated that David's tomb is with them to that day and is acquainted with decay but Christ arose from the dead not acquainted with decay. Also, this proves Christ did not take believers to heaven as He ascended into heaven for David did not ascend. Also, John said "Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."
Peter said:
For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." Thou makest known to me the paths of life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.' Men! Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among us until this day." Being, then, inherently, a prophet, and having perceived that God swears to him with an oath, out of the fruit of his loin to seat One on his throne, perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." This Jesus God raises, of Whom we all are witnesses." Being, then, to the right hand of God exalted, besides obtaining the promise of the holy spirit from the Father, He pours out this which you are observing and hearing." For David did not ascend into the heavens, yet he is saying, 'Said the Lord to my Lord, "Sit at My right" Till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet."'" Let all the house of Israel know certainly, then, that God makes Him Lord as well as Christ - this Jesus Whom you crucify!"
(Act 2:27-36)

So David was not part of the resurrection of some of the saints after Christ rose from the dead.
That resurrection was not to be any proof that the 1000 year Kingdom had already come.




Quote:
Eusebius wrote::
And Jesus said Luk 13:28-29 "There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside." (29) And they will be arriving from east and west and from north and south and will be made to recline in the kingdom of God."
Neither Abraham nor Isaac nor Jacob and ALL the prophet did not resurrect that day and enter into the kingdom of God to be set up in Israel for the millennium.
Quote:
Again, you are wrong in your interpretation of this. These men, are souls, awaiting their incorruptible bodies as Paul taught and expected himself. These prophets and saints are given judgement at the beginning of the 1000 years, however, the souls in Rev 20 do NOT judge the dead "given up" until the end of the 1000 years. Read the chapter again.
No I'm not wrong. You have swallowed the platonistic pagan concept called the immortality of the soul. Their dead bodies are awaiting to have their bodies changed into incorruptible ones. No part of a person is conscious in death. They are dead, not alive in some other form.
I do agree that all the Jews will be judged at the beginning of the 1000 years. This should prove it has not occurred yet.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
The only paradise to be set up is when the Lord comes in His kingdom as the thief on the cross knew and Christ knew. It is in that kingdom.
Quote:
That paradise is before Christ goes into Hades and empties it.

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Right, because the men of Nineva are going to be resurrected at the same time as that generation called "this generation" of which Christ spoke.

Quote:
No other generation other than:

Speaking to the Priests in front of Jesus:

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation
That's right. That generation got the adversative judgment for being murderers by God taking away their nations and destroying their city. That same generation is going to be resurrected in the future along with the men of Jerusalem and those men of Nineva are going to rise up in judgment with that generation.


Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
John saw the souls of the martyrs IN THE FUTURE DAY OF THE LORD. And it is just symbolism. He did not literally see souls under a literal altar. It is just symbolism for the saints being offered to God in martyrdom as if they were sacrificed on an altar and their blood ran under the altar.
Quote:
Say what? "he didn't see literal souls..."

You have got to be kidding me?
That was my point. John did not see literal souls. It was all symbolism.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
The Bible does not say they ascended with Christ 40 days later. John puts that to rest when he wrote:
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."
Quote:
Jesus is the one speaking here in John 3:13 and is pre-cruxifiction....strawman Eusebius.
Not really. John said it of Jesus. It could not have been Jesus speaking John 3:13 because Jesus was not in heaven at the time He was speaking to Nicodemus.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote concerning John seeing souls crying out under the altar in Revelation:
It is just symbolism. In Genesis do you really believe that Abel's blood grew a mouth and cried from the ground?
Quote:
God hears everything dear brother...even blood that cries.
And yes, it is symbolism of his death and the murder commited by Cain.
I don't understand your arguement here.
My argument is that the blood of cain God saw on the ground did not really sprout a mouth and cry out to God for vengeance. It is just a figure of speech. In the old testament did the trees really talk? Neither did literal souls cry out under an altar in Revelation since the bible says "the dead know nothing."

But what does symbolic souls crying and symbolic blood crying have to do with whether or not the millennium came around 70 A.D. which it did not?
Quote:
:
Besides, as stated before, John saw all of the above as a future even in the day of the Lord which is yet future. Those people haven't even been killed yet.
Quote:
LOL
Double LOL

Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
Surely you are dreaming. Those people, in that future day of the new earth will not be alowed into the Holy City Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth.
Quote:
Another LOL...that city, that kingdom is where?

In your midst...within you...in your hearts..inscribed. Luke 17:21

Nice try, and I commend you for that...but you have failed once again.
Laugh all you want. But I get the last laugh:
I wasn't talking about a kingdom. I was talking about the Holy city, Jerusalem:

Rev 21:10 And he carries me away, in spirit, on a mountain, huge and high, and shows me the holy city, Jerusalem, as it is descending out of heaven from God,
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Eusebius...you my dear brother, are a trip. But I am sure you can say the same about me...we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. You will figure it all out when you lose your corruptible body.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Dear sciotamicks, I agree I will lose my corruptible body but not until our blessed Lord returns and we meet Him in the air.

I already figured it out. I think
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Dear Eusebius, I agree too...I will lose my corruptible body and put on my incorruptible body that was rewarded to the church at the Parousia when Christ came in the clouds and judged Israel in 70 AD, doing away with the Old Heavens and Earth and ushering in the realization of the New Heavens and Earth; and this will all happen right after after I take my last breath from this corruptible body that I am cursed with, and I will immediately ascend to Heaven and join the corporate body of the church, and meet billions, if not trillions and gazillions of individuals, inlcuding you.

I think I have that figured out as well

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-22-2009 at 08:30 PM.. Reason: I am a terrible typer
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Dear Eusebius, I agree too...I will lose my corruptible body and put on my incorruptible body that was rewarded to the church at the Parousia when Christ came in the clouds and judged Israel in 70 AD, doing away with the Old Heavens and Earth and ushering in the realization of the New Heavens and Earth; and this will all happen right after after I take my last breath from this corruptible body that I am cursed with, and I will immediately ascend to Heaven and join the corporate body of the church, and meet billions, if not trillions and gazillions of individuals, inlcuding you.

I think I have that figured out as well
Awkward!
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,181,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Dear Eusebius, I agree too...I will lose my corruptible body and put on my incorruptible body that was rewarded to the church at the Parousia when Christ came in the clouds and judged Israel in 70 AD, doing away with the Old Heavens and Earth and ushering in the realization of the New Heavens and Earth; and this will all happen right after after I take my last breath from this corruptible body that I am cursed with, and I will immediately ascend to Heaven and join the corporate body of the church, and meet billions, if not trillions and gazillions of individuals, inlcuding you.

I think I have that figured out as well
At the same time yet different times... eternity. And this is why I dont know what it is that is tripping you up about UR... I find that it fits so nicely with preterism because it is the hope of salvation that the disciples had and it is the realization of salvation that Christ came back for.. so salvation should..IMO.. belong to all as Christ's work (savior of all men) is done. Completed.

My probelm with Eusibius' stance is that if Christ has not returned then salvation is till only hoped for and not seen....

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Romans 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Hebrews 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-- whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. (see Hebrews 3:14 also)

"The end" is that shown in revelation, is it not?

So are you saved or not? because no one had true salvation until Christ finished his work by coming again to destroy the temple.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

But I read as though it were written to them at that time.. not to me 2000 years later.. so I guess that is where we differ.

They hoped for salvation.. we have salvation... so what is pictured in revelation must have happened already... IMO simply put.
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:33 AM
 
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Kat, did anyone see Jesus return in 70 A.D.? Any historian living at that time? any church member see Him return in 70 A.D.? Anybody? Anybody? I'm not talking about seeing Him in their mind. I'm talking about really seeing Him.

Preterism makes all of God's promises to Israel of none effect.
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