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Old 11-23-2009, 06:41 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,819,840 times
Reputation: 997

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The rapture did not originate with Darby. I guess you never read this written almost 2,000 years before Darby was born:

"For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are
surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put
to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of
command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and
the dead in Christ shall be rising first, Thereupon we, the living who are surviving,
shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the
Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." So that, console
one another with these words" (Paul to the Thessalonians 4:15-18).

Who needs creeds when you can have the real thing in Thessalonians?

Concerning dispensationalism, maybe you should do a study on the Chiliasts
Read this and wheep:
Early church and premillennialism (chiliasm)
Millennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The chiliasts (thousandists, i.e., those who believed in a coming 1000 year kingdom) believed the thousand years had not arrived.

Had you lived back then your preterist ideas for the first four centuries would have been ridiculed.

As far as Eusebius is concerned, he is not inspired and does not represent the apostle Paul, nor Christ.

As to Eusebius saying the new earth already came in his day:

Jacob Burckhardt (19th century cultural historian) dismissed Eusebus as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity".
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,678,278 times
Reputation: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The rapture did not originate with Darby. I guess you never read this written almost 2,000 years before Darby was born:

"For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are
surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put
to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of
command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and
the dead in Christ shall be rising first, Thereupon we, the living who are surviving,
shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the
Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." So that, console
one another with these words" (Paul to the Thessalonians 4:15-18).

Who needs creeds when you can have the real thing in Thessalonians?

Concerning dispensationalism, maybe you should do a study on the Chiliasts
Read this and wheep:
Early church and premillennialism (chiliasm)
Millennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The chiliasts (thousandists, i.e., those who believed in a coming 1000 year kingdom) believed the thousand years had not arrived.

Had you lived back then your preterist ideas for the first four centuries would have been ridiculed.

As far as Eusebius is concerned, he is not inspired and does not represent the apostle Paul, nor Christ.

As to Eusebius saying the new earth already came in his day:

Jacob Burckhardt (19th century cultural historian) dismissed Eusebus as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity".
Studied them all ...thanks though

Regarding 1 Thess 4:16

Parousia - Presence - παρουσία - present participle of πάρειμι - to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present

Here's a present for you......Is Christ not already "come or present" in your life now?

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-23-2009 at 06:51 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:22 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,819,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Studied them all ...thanks though

Regarding 1 Thess 4:16

Parousia - Presence - παρουσία - present participle of πάρειμι - to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present

Here's a present for you......Is Christ not already "come or present" in your life now?
Oh dear Lord, Parousia is not a present participle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It is derived from the present participle of G3918.

G3952
?????????
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries


Christ is not present with me like He is going to be when all who have died from Paul's day to our day will come out of their tombs and meet the living believers in the air where we will meet the Lord.
The last time I was in the air on a jet I didn't see all those millions of people come popping out of their tombs to meet all the living believers.
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:33 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,734,627 times
Reputation: 901
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The point of Satan's binding is not the influence he had on Christians, but his influence he had on the gospel itself. It blew up, and could not be hindered in any way during this period of time. We see the same thing in Revelation:

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This happened throughout the world, the Roman Empire, without hesitation and hinderance in any way. Paul attested to this is Collosians:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
It is so interesting how you take three sayings ("at hand...quickly....soon"!) so very literally, and then turn around and because of those three sayings you interpret almost all the prophecy concerning the messiah figuratively or symbolic ... That is what i call bad exegesis.

You say the thousand years means 40 years, but when we tell you two thousand years means two days to God, all the sudden we are taking things out of context. The bible in 2 peter doesn't say "to God a thousand years is as forty years, a and forty years is as a thousand years" ...

You say the gospel was preached to the whole world(Roman empire) ... and that satan was bound in the pit for a thousand years, but what he really meant to say was forty years only he(John) got mixed up or maybe he was just trying to confuse us ... Now i know Paul wrote that the gospel "had been preached" past tense, and i'm sure in his mind he thought it had, they didn't know about the Americas back then and he may have thought that it was accomplished, but that doesn't mean he was right. He was a man writing, yes as inspired by God but nevertheless a man who made mistakes. And that is not saying that he was making a mistake when he wrote this, but perhaps you are only misunderstanding what he meant. Perhaps he was only referring to the fact that the gospel message had been testified to the whole world by the act of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, which would serve as a testimony for the entire world in the centuries to come.

One thing is for sure the apostles and their disciples were in fact being hindered and persecuted throughout the land, and some of the apostles themselves were martyred because of it. For you to say it went unhindered in my opinion is to underestimate the troubles which the gospel message had in those early years especially under Nero ... And the distortion which had been applied to it in the presence of the roman catholic church under the influence of the Roman state.

The fact is the bible says that Satan would be bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit and would no more deceive the nations, while Paul wrote that he was wandering around on the earth deceiving and seeking whom he might devour. And you add to the word when you say it is referring only to hindering the message of the gospel and that he didn't hinder the message of the Gospel when in fact he did, and it is written that he was at the time and i believe still is the God of this world age ... And that he was then and still is now blinding the minds of the masses to the Gospel truth ...

You have to jump through allot of hoops to make your point that the return of Christ was at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD ...


Quote:
Fulfilled:

Acts 2:30-34 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
No where in this passage does it say that Christ sat on the throne of David. Again you are adding to the word by saying that Christ sitting in the throne of the father is the same as sitting on the earthly throne of David.
Quote:
I agree...He did not rule on that throne till He ascended.
He never yet has ruled on the throne of David ...



Quote:
No. The Beast is Rome. The False Prophet is Apostate Israeli Polity, King and Priest line...two horns...like a lamb...Dragon.

Compare Daniel and his beast...seven heads, ten horns. Little horn
Compare Rev 17....Scarlet Beast, Ten Horns Seven Heads, and Woman on top. The little Horn, False Prophet, and Woman (Mother of Harlots, Mystery Babylon) are all Israel.



These are spirutal symbolic renditions of what is on earth. These are destroyed by Christ, the Gospel...the White Rider and Horse that conquered, the Lamb dressed in a vestige of His own blood, sword (gospel) coming out of His mouth, destroying all that is symbolic of them.
So you are saying that the beast and the false prophet being cast ALIVE into the lake of fire is to be understood symbolically, while out of the otherside of your mouth when arguing that eternal torment is true, you say the lake of fire is literal ... Which is it? Symbolic or literal? I believe the lake of fire is indeed symbolic, but not that the casting of the beast and the false prophet into it are ... That is to say, i believe the beast and the false prophet will literally face fiery judgment in that they will undergo chastising and correction while they are still alive before they die ...

Quote:
I always have an answer, that is always backed up in scripture. Believe it or not, but the main failure of the church is it has intertwined what is in the heavenlies and copied it to what is here on earth, instead of relating it exegetically.
Yes you use scripture to answer these things but you rip them out of context in order to do so ...

See what it says here in ...



Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



and again ...



Phl 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;



and yet again ...



Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


So we see that a day will come that every knee will bow of things in heaven and in earth and under the earth. That day has not come. Not even half of the people on earth bow to Christ or confess him as lord ... There has not even been a time when all Israel bowed to Christ and confessed him as lord, much less everyone on earth and in heaven ...

You say this all happens in heaven only, while the bible says it will happen on earth as well ...




Quote:
As you say....Amen and Selah.
Indeed ...


Amen and Selah
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,678,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Oh dear Lord, Parousia is not a present participle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It is derived from the present participle of G3918.

That's eactly what I was saying...I don't understand your arguement?
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,678,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
It is so interesting how you take three sayings ("at hand...quickly....soon"!) so very literally, and then turn around and because of those three sayings you interpret almost all the prophecy concerning the messiah figuratively or symbolic ... That is what i call bad exegesis.
Bad exegesis? So, when Christ comes on the clouds, you expect Him to come on the clouds when the scripture says otherwise?

Also, when Babylon fell, and Isaiah wrte that the sun didn't give its light, and moon and stars fell...that they did, when they didn't?

Give me a break brother!

Quote:
You say the thousand years means 40 years, but when we tell you two thousand years means two days to God, all the sudden we are taking things out of context. The bible in 2 peter doesn't say "to God a thousand years is as forty years, a and forty years is as a thousand years" ...
I gave you my synopsis, all supported by scripture, and you take it otherwise...talk about adding to it!

Quote:
You say the gospel was preached to the whole world(Roman empire) ... and that satan was bound in the pit for a thousand years, but what he really meant to say was forty years only he(John) got mixed up or maybe he was just trying to confuse us ... Now i know Paul wrote that the gospel "had been preached" past tense, and i'm sure in his mind he thought it had, they didn't know about the Americas back then and he may have thought that it was accomplished, but that doesn't mean he was right. He was a man writing, yes as inspired by God but nevertheless a man who made mistakes. And that is not saying that he was making a mistake when he wrote this, but perhaps you are only misunderstanding what he meant. Perhaps he was only referring to the fact that the gospel message had been testified to the whole world by the act of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, which would serve as a testimony for the entire world in the centuries to come.
What did Paul say in Collosians 1:23 about the world, all the nations under Heaven?

Quote:
One thing is for sure the apostles and their disciples were in fact being hindered and persecuted throughout the land, and some of the apostles themselves were martyred because of it. For you to say it went unhindered in my opinion is to underestimate the troubles which the gospel message had in those early years especially under Nero ... And the distortion which had been applied to it in the presence of the roman catholic church under the influence of the Roman state.
The Gospel...not the people...read the post again.

Quote:
The fact is the bible says that Satan would be bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit and would no more deceive the nations, while Paul wrote that he was wandering around on the earth deceiving and seeking whom he might devour. And you add to the word when you say it is referring only to hindering the message of the gospel and that he didn't hinder the message of the Gospel when in fact he did, and it is written that he was at the time and i believe still is the God of this world age ... And that he was then and still is now blinding the minds of the masses to the Gospel truth ...
The Bible says after the thousands years are finished....he decieves the nations...67-70...that little season..that period. Sorry for the misunderstanding in the titled post...my mistake...30-67 AD

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

Quote:
You have to jump through allot of hoops to make your point that the return of Christ was at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD ...
No I don't.

Quote:
No where in this passage does it say that Christ sat on the throne of David. Again you are adding to the word by saying that Christ sitting in the throne of the father is the same as sitting on the earthly throne of David.
He never yet has ruled on the throne of David
So He isn't ruling...what is He doing then? Use scripture to prove your case...not just a bunch of words.

Quote:
So you are saying that the beast and the false prophet being cast ALIVE
Yes.

Quote:
into the lake of fire is to be understood symbolically, while out of the otherside of your mouth when arguing that eternal torment is true, you say the lake of fire is literal ... Which is it? Symbolic or literal? I believe the lake of fire is indeed symbolic, but not that the casting of the beast and the false prophet into it are ... That is to say, i believe the beast and the false prophet will literally face fiery judgment in that they will undergo chastising and correction while they are still alive before they die ...
Because of your "brimstone" analogy? LOL

You, like many futurists and Universalists, rip the entire Word of God out of context.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,734,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Bad exegesis? So, when Christ comes on the clouds, you expect Him to come on the clouds when the scripture says otherwise?

Also, when Babylon fell, and Isaiah wrte that the sun didn't give its light, and moon and stars fell...that they did, when they didn't?

Give me a break brother!



I gave you my synopsis, all supported by scripture, and you take it otherwise...talk about adding to it!



What did Paul say in Collosians 1:23 about the world, all the nations under Heaven?



The Gospel...not the people...read the post again.



The Bible says after the thousands years are finished....he decieves the nations...67-70...that little season..that period. Sorry for the misunderstanding in the titled post...my mistake...30-67 AD

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.



No I don't.



So He isn't ruling...what is He doing then? Use scripture to prove your case...not just a bunch of words.



Yes.



Because of your "brimstone" analogy? LOL

You, like many futurists and Universalists, rip the entire Word of God out of context.
Im not going to argue with you ... No point in it. You will believe what you will regardless of what i say.

You can believe God created the heavens and the earth is seven literal days, and that Adam and Eve were beguiled by a literal talking snake so that they ate a literal magic fruit from a Literal magic tree which gave them a knowledge of Good and evil.

And you can then believe that the sun and the moon and the stars wont literally be darkened at his return, or that he wont literally return and cause every knee to bow to him on earth and in heaven and confess he is their lord, or that there wont be literal resurrection of the dead as he was literally raised from the dead. And that the Roman army which invaded Israel in 70 AD was really jesus in disguise and the beast of revelations at the same time ...

You can believe in a literal body of water that is on fire for ever in which immortal sinners/humans and angels live for ever in eternal tortures while remaining in everlasting evil, and that Jesus wont really destroy sin and death but that they will last forever in an eternal lake of fire ....

You can believe whatever you want ...


It is my opinion that your ideas are both self contradictory and contradictory of what is written in the scriptures ...

Selah ...
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,678,278 times
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Ironmaw...no worries man...I was like you once...a Dispensationalist....I wasn't a Full Preterist my whole life...then I studied the scriptures, and stayed consistent with the scriptures...and voila...saw that EVERYTHING was fulfilled.

You have to rightly divide the word of God...what is literal and what is allegorical.

Sometimes....an olive tree is just an olive tree, and brimstone is just that...brimstone.
Peace to you...it's alright...I am not trying to convince you..or argue with you either....just showing my view on things.

I can shut up if it bothers you, as it seems to so much....but remember, I love Christ too you know.
My duty as a Christian, is to heal people from Dispensationlism, which has warped our church for far too long.
It has created different sects, doctrines, wars, and Islam for crying out loud, so my job as a Christian, is to spread the gospel, and proclaim Isaiah 9:7

Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The world isn't going to end...God said so

Stay busy in the Word!

Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-23-2009 at 10:47 PM..
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,168,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
It is so interesting how you take three sayings ("at hand...quickly....soon"!) so very literally, and then turn around and because of those three sayings you interpret almost all the prophecy concerning the messiah figuratively or symbolic ... That is what i call bad exegesis.

You say the thousand years means 40 years, but when we tell you two thousand years means two days to God, all the sudden we are taking things out of context. The bible in 2 peter doesn't say "to God a thousand years is as forty years, a and forty years is as a thousand years" ...

You say the gospel was preached to the whole world(Roman empire) ... and that satan was bound in the pit for a thousand years, but what he really meant to say was forty years only he(John) got mixed up or maybe he was just trying to confuse us ... Now i know Paul wrote that the gospel "had been preached" past tense, and i'm sure in his mind he thought it had, they didn't know about the Americas back then and he may have thought that it was accomplished, but that doesn't mean he was right. He was a man writing, yes as inspired by God but nevertheless a man who made mistakes. And that is not saying that he was making a mistake when he wrote this, but perhaps you are only misunderstanding what he meant. Perhaps he was only referring to the fact that the gospel message had been testified to the whole world by the act of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, which would serve as a testimony for the entire world in the centuries to come.

One thing is for sure the apostles and their disciples were in fact being hindered and persecuted throughout the land, and some of the apostles themselves were martyred because of it. For you to say it went unhindered in my opinion is to underestimate the troubles which the gospel message had in those early years especially under Nero ... And the distortion which had been applied to it in the presence of the roman catholic church under the influence of the Roman state.

The fact is the bible says that Satan would be bound a thousand years in the bottomless pit and would no more deceive the nations, while Paul wrote that he was wandering around on the earth deceiving and seeking whom he might devour. And you add to the word when you say it is referring only to hindering the message of the gospel and that he didn't hinder the message of the Gospel when in fact he did, and it is written that he was at the time and i believe still is the God of this world age ... And that he was then and still is now blinding the minds of the masses to the Gospel truth ...

You have to jump through allot of hoops to make your point that the return of Christ was at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD ...


No where in this passage does it say that Christ sat on the throne of David. Again you are adding to the word by saying that Christ sitting in the throne of the father is the same as sitting on the earthly throne of David.
He never yet has ruled on the throne of David ...



So you are saying that the beast and the false prophet being cast ALIVE into the lake of fire is to be understood symbolically, while out of the otherside of your mouth when arguing that eternal torment is true, you say the lake of fire is literal ... Which is it? Symbolic or literal? I believe the lake of fire is indeed symbolic, but not that the casting of the beast and the false prophet into it are ... That is to say, i believe the beast and the false prophet will literally face fiery judgment in that they will undergo chastising and correction while they are still alive before they die ...

Yes you use scripture to answer these things but you rip them out of context in order to do so ...

See what it says here in ...



Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



and again ...



Phl 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;



and yet again ...



Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


So we see that a day will come that every knee will bow of things in heaven and in earth and under the earth. That day has not come. Not even half of the people on earth bow to Christ or confess him as lord ... There has not even been a time when all Israel bowed to Christ and confessed him as lord, much less everyone on earth and in heaven ...

You say this all happens in heaven only, while the bible says it will happen on earth as well ...




Indeed ...


Amen and Selah
Ironmaw.. you are very wise.. and as a URer myself I would like you to think of it this way.. Say that Jesus came to save all men.. would it not be in heaven and earth that all men are saved? So then if all men are saved on earth and in heaven.. yet they don't really act like it.. then isn't it possible that Jesus coming back had the same impact? That perhaps it was the destruction of the temple that solidified the salvation of all? If Jesus has not come back yet.. how can we truly state that salvation is attainable when the NT writers HOPED for salvation but it had not come yet.. what is is that they were waiting for in order to REALIZE salvation rather than simply HOPE for it?

Heb. 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

So isn't it true that Jesus' second coming actually brought salvation? That if you think you have salvation now yet Jesus' second coming is still future then you aren't really saved you are simply hoping you are saved? But if you know in your heart that you are really saved then Jesus had to have come back already...

Does that make sense?

Romans 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:50 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 13,819,840 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That's eactly what I was saying...I don't understand your arguement?
Umm, sciotamicks, that is not exactly what you were saying.
O.K. then let's step back to your argument where you wrote this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Studied them all ...thanks though
Regarding 1 Thess 4:16
Parousia - Presence - παρουσία - present participle of πάρειμι - to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present
Here's a present for you......Is Christ not already "come or present" in your life now?
sciotamicks, There is only one way I could take what you wrote above. You suggested by saying "Is Christ not already "come or present" in your life now?" Then I replied to the above.

Originally Posted by Eusebius
Oh dear Lord, Parousia is not a present participle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It is derived from the present participle of G3918.


Quote:
That's eactly what I was saying...I don't understand your arguement?
So you are just playing mind games. You were not saying exactly what I was saying. If you were saying exactly what I was saying you wouldn't have said what you said in asking if Christ is already come or present in my life now. You said that because you thought "parousis" was a present tense.

But this is not that important a matter. What is important is Christ never came back in 70 A.D. as so many preterists claim. That is just a fable. No one saw Christ return in 70 A.D. Christ never said His return would be a top-secret return where no one would know He came. He said it would be very apparent where "every eye shall see Him." The great world-shattering earthquake must come in which all the cities of the nations must fall and all the islands be moved form their places.
Also, the man of lawlessness must be cut off by Christ Himself after he persecuted His brethren for 3 1/2 years.

There are many other things which must take place. ALL THESE THINGS MUST OCCUR (not just some of them).

As I wrote before and proved historically: John wrote Revelation between 93-96 A.D. and was still looking forward to Christ's return to set up the 1000 year kingdom. But even if you can poo poo the historical evidence, you cannot poo poo the rest of the evidence which is clearly against your stance.

Tell me, sciotamicks, is the resurrection already past?

BTW, your handle is interesting. Do you live near the Sciota river in Ohio?

Peace
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