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This I find is the central topic that divides Christians. The Calvanist perspective is ultimately that one will persevere in the Faith as they are preserved. A believer will not Apostatize. The Arminian perspective is that true born-again believers can and do fall away from the Faith resulting in eternal judgment. The "Free Grace" (for lack of a better term.. if there is one please let me know) states that one ultimately can apostatize from the Faith and still be eternally Saved.
Let's review some Scripture in context.. probably the best place to start is John 6
John 6 KJV
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I think this passage is foundational to helping us come to a correct interpretation on the subject of apostasy. It's interesting that His "disciples" didn't believe. The fruit of not believing was betraying Him.
The Lord Jesus refers to Himself as the true bread of heaven in which in "eating" of Him and "drinking" His blood we have eternal life. The Lord speaks of His Words as Spirit and Life.
The analogy is used of eating "Manna" in the wilderness wanderings. The thought that comes to mind is those that "went back to Egypt".
There are two Scriptures that refer to this event.. one is in the book of Corinthians and the other in the Book of Jude.
1 Corinthians 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Jude 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
I find it interesting that the Book of Corinthians is seemingly talking to the Body of Christ in 1 Cor 10.. At least this is the consensus generally from commentators due to Paul identifying them as the brethren. Jude, however, is clearly identifying this group using the same analogy as clearly unsaved.
"They" gone in the "way of Cain" (generally seen as hatred toward one's brother), "ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward" (generally seen as greed/covetousness), and "perished in the gainsaying of Core/Korah (taking on a position that was not ordained and given to Him/ambition for position as I think it's saying).
So what are your thoughts on this?
Is this group that went "Back to Egypt" in the Wilderness eternally saved or lost? Is one that apostasizes from Jesus Christ eternally saved by His unmerited Grace?
Maybe we can have a really fruitful discussion on the issue.. post Scripture with context.
The incident of the Israelites going "back to Egypt" is located in Numbers 13 and 14, and I think this is an important concept to understand as it relates to the entering of "the Rest" in Hebrews 3 and 4.
This I find is the central topic that divides Christians. The Calvanist perspective is ultimately that one will persevere in the Faith as they are preserved. A believer will not Apostatize. The Arminian perspective is that true born-again believers can and do fall away from the Faith resulting in eternal judgment. The "Free Grace" (for lack of a better term.. if there is one please let me know) states that one ultimately can apostatize from the Faith and still be eternally Saved.
In regards to eternal security there were 4 views discussed in the book Four Views on Eternal Security. The book is edited by J. Matthew Pinson. It includes presentations and discussions of the 4 views by Micheal S. Horton, Norman L. Geisler, Stephen M. Ashby, and J. Stephen Harper.
The 4 views are labeled Classical Calvinism, Moderate Calvinism, Reformed Arminian, and Wesleyan Arminian. Each of the authors presents one of the 4 views. This is followed by critiques and defense featuring the other 3 contributors.
This I find is the central topic that divides Christians. The Calvanist perspective is ultimately that one will persevere in the Faith as they are preserved. A believer will not Apostatize. The Arminian perspective is that true born-again believers can and do fall away from the Faith resulting in eternal judgment. The "Free Grace" (for lack of a better term.. if there is one please let me know) states that one ultimately can apostatize from the Faith and still be eternally Saved.
Let's review some Scripture in context.. probably the best place to start is John 6
John 6 KJV
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I think this passage is foundational to helping us come to a correct interpretation on the subject of apostasy. It's interesting that His "disciples" didn't believe. The fruit of not believing was betraying Him.
The Lord Jesus refers to Himself as the true bread of heaven in which in "eating" of Him and "drinking" His blood we have eternal life. The Lord speaks of His Words as Spirit and Life.
The analogy is used of eating "Manna" in the wilderness wanderings. The thought that comes to mind is those that "went back to Egypt".
There are two Scriptures that refer to this event.. one is in the book of Corinthians and the other in the Book of Jude.
1 Corinthians 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Jude 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
I find it interesting that the Book of Corinthians is seemingly talking to the Body of Christ in 1 Cor 10.. At least this is the consensus generally from commentators due to Paul identifying them as the brethren. Jude, however, is clearly identifying this group using the same analogy as clearly unsaved.
"They" gone in the "way of Cain" (generally seen as hatred toward one's brother), "ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward" (generally seen as greed/covetousness), and "perished in the gainsaying of Core/Korah (taking on a position that was not ordained and given to Him/ambition for position as I think it's saying).
So what are your thoughts on this?
Is this group that went "Back to Egypt" in the Wilderness eternally saved or lost? Is one that apostasizes from Jesus Christ eternally saved by His unmerited Grace?
Maybe we can have a really fruitful discussion on the issue.. post Scripture with context.
The incident of the Israelites going "back to Egypt" is located in Numbers 13 and 14, and I think this is an important concept to understand as it relates to the entering of "the Rest" in Hebrews 3 and 4.
The doctrine that we cannot lose eternal life is called OSAS. They say, when we get born again we are eternally saved. Salvation is in Christ and in Him alone. The bible gives many examples that believers can fall away from faith. Jesus says remain in Me, that is the security of the believer and not a doctrine that promises a false security. To do what ever you want, you have a free ticket to Heaven is the error, it is not believing the gospel, which is the power of God to be an overcomer and not a sinner.. Jude is describing such believers that live in sin and Jude calls them in verse 12 twice dead. That makes it clear, a believer can die again spiritual after being born again. The prodigal son was lost and became alive again, this is the grace of the NT. The unbeliever has to repent to receive eternal life and the believer has to obey and if he sins a sin to death he has to confess and repent, so his unrighteousness will be cleansed. Death means death and life means life, it describes separation from God or having the life of God, which is eternal. Israel in the wilderness gives us an example of the spiritual life of a believer and what sin is doing to a believer.
The doctrine that we cannot lose eternal life is called OSAS. They say, when we get born again we are eternally saved. Salvation is in Christ and in Him alone. The bible gives many examples that believers can fall away from faith. Jesus says remain in Me, that is the security of the believer and not a doctrine that promises a false security. To do what ever you want, you have a free ticket to Heaven is the error, it is not believing the gospel, which is the power of God to be an overcomer and not a sinner.. Jude is describing such believers that live in sin and Jude calls them in verse 12 twice dead. That makes it clear, a believer can die again spiritual after being born again. The prodigal son was lost and became alive again, this is the grace of the NT. The unbeliever has to repent to receive eternal life and the believer has to obey and if he sins a sin to death he has to confess and repent, so his unrighteousness will be cleansed. Death means death and life means life, it describes separation from God or having the life of God, which is eternal. Israel in the wilderness gives us an example of the spiritual life of a believer and what sin is doing to a believer.
Well one thing I've noticed, if "once saved always Saved" is not correct, than "once saved then lost again always lost" must be embraced with that interpretation.
As Scripture such as Hebrews 6 talks about the "impossibility of renewing again unto repentance". So at some point and time the believer through disobedience/unrighteousness would lose ALL HOPE.. No hope whatsoever. But we are saved by Hope no?
Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Is that what the Bible is saying? That if one comes to Christ for salvation, but then is unrighteous it is "better for them to have not known the way of righteousness" (2 Peter 2)? It would have been better if they had never come to Christ at all?
Is that what the Scriptures are saying?
I really don't see this as a peripheral non-essential issue really for fellowship.
In regards to eternal security there were 4 views discussed in the book Four Views on Eternal Security. The book is edited by J. Matthew Pinson. It includes presentations and discussions of the 4 views by Micheal S. Horton, Norman L. Geisler, Stephen M. Ashby, and J. Stephen Harper.
The 4 views are labeled Classical Calvinism, Moderate Calvinism, Reformed Arminian, and Wesleyan Arminian. Each of the authors presents one of the 4 views. This is followed by critiques and defense featuring the other 3 contributors.
The doctrine that we cannot lose eternal life is called OSAS. They say, when we get born again we are eternally saved. Salvation is in Christ and in Him alone. The bible gives many examples that believers can fall away from faith. Jesus says remain in Me, that is the security of the believer and not a doctrine that promises a false security. To do what ever you want, you have a free ticket to Heaven is the error, it is not believing the gospel, which is the power of God to be an overcomer and not a sinner.. Jude is describing such believers that live in sin and Jude calls them in verse 12 twice dead. That makes it clear, a believer can die again spiritual after being born again. The prodigal son was lost and became alive again, this is the grace of the NT. The unbeliever has to repent to receive eternal life and the believer has to obey and if he sins a sin to death he has to confess and repent, so his unrighteousness will be cleansed. Death means death and life means life, it describes separation from God or having the life of God, which is eternal. Israel in the wilderness gives us an example of the spiritual life of a believer and what sin is doing to a believer.
Your use of the "Prodigal" is misapplied. As you must know if you know the story, the Father never ceased loving the son even though he had gone astray. He continued waiting for the son to return and since the son was a true son he did indeed return. He had deviated off the path but he was never eternally lost.
When discussing this entire point about the "Preservation of the saints" I always like to consider the case of the only man I know of in the bible who God calls, "A man after my own heart". From our own human perspective, King David was surely a worse sinner than most of us ever will be. Imagine, he had a man killed. A man that was his friend. A man who's wife David was committing adultery with. David had Uriah killed so that he could have Bathsheba for himself. Now, we all know that when it comes to breaking God's laws it does not get much worse than this. So, the question has to be, did this terrible sin, this turning his back on God cause David to be completely cast out by God? Did David cease to be a child of God as a result of these grievous sins. Well , we know that these sins had very bad consequences for David here in this world. However we also know that David remained "A man after God's own heart".
If there is anything that is clearer in the bible than the fact that we are chosen by God for His glory out of His inscrutable will I don't know what it is. I remember as a child how the story of Jacob and Esau bothered me. Esau seemed to be such a nicer and better fellow in all ways than his sneaky brother Jacob. Jacob fought and struggled against God every step of the way. He stole his own brother's birthright. He was a liar and deceived his own father who was old and blind at the time. Yet beside all of this God says in his word, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated". He even goes farther than that and tells us that he loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born.
There are many many other biblical examples of people who we would think of as very great sinners who were in fact "The sons and daughters of God". It's clear that God chooses His people for His purposes. They in some way bring glory to His name and are instrumental in carrying out His plans for his creation.
You know, if some day I'm in an accident and suffer brain damage that causes me to curse the name of God I have every single confidence that God will not abandon me. If I go senile in my old age and become a very nasty and profane person I will still inherit the Kingdom of God. God promises me that "He will never forsake me" I'm trusting in that, not in this body of corruption I was born with.
Here is a song paraphrased from what David prayed after killing Uriah and marrying Bathsheba.
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Cast me not away from Thy presence, oh Lord
Take not Thy holy spirit from me
Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation
And renew a right spirit within me
Your use of the "Prodigal" is misapplied. As you must know if you know the story, the Father never ceased loving the son even though he had gone astray. He continued waiting for the son to return and since the son was a true son he did indeed return. He had deviated off the path but he was never eternally lost.
When discussing this entire point about the "Preservation of the saints" I always like to consider the case of the only man I know of in the bible who God calls, "A man after my own heart". From our own human perspective, King David was surely a worse sinner than most of us ever will be. Imagine, he had a man killed. A man that was his friend. A man who's wife David was committing adultery with. David had Uriah killed so that he could have Bathsheba for himself. Now, we all know that when it comes to breaking God's laws it does not get much worse than this. So, the question has to be, did this terrible sin, this turning his back on God cause David to be completely cast out by God? Did David cease to be a child of God as a result of these grievous sins. Well , we know that these sins had very bad consequences for David here in this world. However we also know that David remained "A man after God's own heart".
If there is anything that is clearer in the bible than the fact that we are chosen by God for His glory out of His inscrutable will I don't know what it is. I remember as a child how the story of Jacob and Esau bothered me. Esau seemed to be such a nicer and better fellow in all ways than his sneaky brother Jacob. Jacob fought and struggled against God every step of the way. He stole his own brother's birthright. He was a liar and deceived his own father who was old and blind at the time. Yet beside all of this God says in his word, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated". He even goes farther than that and tells us that he loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born.
There are many many other biblical examples of people who we would think of as very great sinners who were in fact "The sons and daughters of God". It's clear that God chooses His people for His purposes. They in some way bring glory to His name and are instrumental in carrying out His plans for his creation.
You know, if some day I'm in an accident and suffer brain damage that causes me to curse the name of God I have every single confidence that God will not abandon me. If I go senile in my old age and become a very nasty and profane person I will still inherit the Kingdom of God. God promises me that "He will never forsake me" I'm trusting in that, not in this body of corruption I was born with.
Here is a song paraphrased from what David prayed after killing Uriah and marrying Bathsheba.
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Cast me not away from Thy presence, oh Lord
Take not Thy holy spirit from me
Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation
And renew a right spirit within me
Your use of the "Prodigal" is misapplied. As you must know if you know the story, the Father never ceased loving the son even though he had gone astray. He continued waiting for the son to return and since the son was a true son he did indeed return. He had deviated off the path but he was never eternally lost.
When discussing this entire point about the "Preservation of the saints" I always like to consider the case of the only man I know of in the bible who God calls, "A man after my own heart". From our own human perspective, King David was surely a worse sinner than most of us ever will be. Imagine, he had a man killed. A man that was his friend. A man who's wife David was committing adultery with. David had Uriah killed so that he could have Bathsheba for himself. Now, we all know that when it comes to breaking God's laws it does not get much worse than this. So, the question has to be, did this terrible sin, this turning his back on God cause David to be completely cast out by God? Did David cease to be a child of God as a result of these grievous sins. Well , we know that these sins had very bad consequences for David here in this world. However we also know that David remained "A man after God's own heart".
If there is anything that is clearer in the bible than the fact that we are chosen by God for His glory out of His inscrutable will I don't know what it is. I remember as a child how the story of Jacob and Esau bothered me. Esau seemed to be such a nicer and better fellow in all ways than his sneaky brother Jacob. Jacob fought and struggled against God every step of the way. He stole his own brother's birthright. He was a liar and deceived his own father who was old and blind at the time. Yet beside all of this God says in his word, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated". He even goes farther than that and tells us that he loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born.
There are many many other biblical examples of people who we would think of as very great sinners who were in fact "The sons and daughters of God". It's clear that God chooses His people for His purposes. They in some way bring glory to His name and are instrumental in carrying out His plans for his creation.
You know, if some day I'm in an accident and suffer brain damage that causes me to curse the name of God I have every single confidence that God will not abandon me. If I go senile in my old age and become a very nasty and profane person I will still inherit the Kingdom of God. God promises me that "He will never forsake me" I'm trusting in that, not in this body of corruption I was born with.
Here is a song paraphrased from what David prayed after killing Uriah and marrying Bathsheba.
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Create in me a clean heart, oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Cast me not away from Thy presence, oh Lord
Take not Thy holy spirit from me
Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation
And renew a right spirit within me
David and Saul were both chosen by God, David sinned and repented, Saul did not. Each ones acts drew them closer to God or pushed Him away; AFTER they had His favor.
We can't lose our salvation by someone else taking it away but we can throw it away by not being repentant.
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