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Enow has asked,Now I ask Gideon... what will the raptured saints body will be like as in the first harvest... even though we disagree as to when that is: what is the raptured body will be like?
Gideon said, sorry, I forgot this one. Well there is only one harvest as in the resurrection of the saints in the first resurrection. As you stated we disagree on that. I really can not tell what it will be like to be immortal. Paul tells us it is a mystery. Paul has showed us the mystery but we can not know it until it comes. We can see it now, but not know it now. We can guess what it will be like, but to know it is impossible. We can not fathom what immortality will do for us. We will all be change at the end of the GT, when the last trumpet sounds to receive our rewards (Revelation 10, and 11), we are changed in order to be able to reign with Christ in the immortal kingdom, which has no end on earth. I can hardly wait. We wont hunger any longer or have any pain or sickness anymore. It will all be gone from us. I would imagine we will be indistructable also, etc.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The obvious conclusion is... if the Book of Enoch is not a forgery, then certainly the Jewish fable that turns away from the truth of God's words.
Let's be very clear indeed: the book of 1 Enoch is not a "Jewish" book, but the wise of Israel who sought God had it, as the wise of all nations once had it.
It was the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century who banned 1 Enoch because the book tells of the Person of Christ and His Work for the redemption in His name, and by His death, for all mankind; but they rejected the Anointed [the Christ, of 1 Enoch], in His coming.
Then, nearly four hundred years after the NT Church was founded upon Christ and His twelve Apostles, Rome followed the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century and also "banned" 1 Enoch, but the Abyssinian Christians who were Jews and who converted to Christ never banned 1 Enoch, and they kept it as "sacred writing" in their "Bible", and it is still there, in their "Bible", in their "list/canon".
The faithful to YHWH of Israel -the sons of Zadok, who formed the Essene Community- and the Jews who were the Apostles and disciples and those who converted to Christ of the first century, had Enoch, used it, and quoted from it and also called it "Scripture", as Jesus also did. That is history which any serious student of Christ can discover easily by checking.
And the early Church "fathers' called Enoch Scripture and quoted it, just as Jesus also did. But a baby is not the father, and they were not the fathers of the Church, because Scripture is plain that Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, and the prophets of old who foretold Him, and His twelve Apostles, upon whom His NT Church is built are the "fathers" with Jesus the Firstborn, the Head, the "Father'.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Now, as to the resurrection called the first resurrection, Enoch also told of that. In chaper 50, he speaks of the "rapture" as the the translation to glory of the righteous before the time of the Tribulation on earth, which Enoch first wrote of as the second consummation of sin on earth when the wrath of God comes upoon all those on earth, in which evil will have been treasured up against sinners; and those who are wise will see that translation to glory of the righteous, and will repent of the works of their hands. They will be saved in His [Jesus the Christ] name, but they will get no glory; but they will be saved in His [the name of God who is come as the Son of Man from heaven] glorious name.
Enoch also continues on in his parables of that time, and tells of the return of Christ to judge all on earth, after the tribulation, at which time the last of the righteous are resurrected [those who died as martyrs in the tribulation], and that is the end of the first resurrection, which is to Life. There will never be another resurrection of the righteous, for the righteous who are alive and remain on earth at the coming of Christ Jesus to reign will never die, but will live through the millennial Sabbath and populate the earth, as Enoch also reports and as the OT reports, and they will be translated to the immortal bodies of glory at the end of the millennial reign, which is the end of the first creation and the beginning of the eternal regenerated heavens and earth.
The wise who seek the Truth of Christ may learn from Enoch what was to be first, and last. The Book of Enoch
So that is the conundrum of your presentation, Gideon. How can the raptured saints that meet the Lord in the air and come back with Him be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and placed into the pit for the 1000 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620
Gideon said, Enow has asked some very good questions and I am glad he has done so.
I Thes 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The dead in Christ are most definitely resurrected on the last day, when the tribulation ends, at the last trumpet.....
We see the trumpet in I Thes 4 also; plus we see God brings the dead back with him. This is even more proof that JESUS is God. Will God bring with Him, 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Who is God, Jesus bringing with him, the dead whom the context of the chapter is about; notice it says nothing of the living coming with him. The living are on earth and they meet Jesus and the dead in the air.
Thank you for attempting to explain your views in light of the conundrum, but you had overlooked something important.
If those that are Christ be risen from the dead first and those that are alive and remain shall be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet the Lord and them in the air, then who are those being resurrected after the devil was thrown into the pit?
Below is your reference:
Quote:
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Are you saying that the Lord deals with the devil first and then resurrect the dead in Christ and changed the living to meet Him in the air afterwards? Because that is when the first resurrection is to take place.
I am not sure how that can be seen as coming to Earth with the saints if Jesus was already there, defeating the devil, and throwing him into the pit and then "ascend" in order to descend to come back to the earth with the saints.
Am I explaining clearly why I am having trouble seeing your point of view?
The raising of the dead in Christ and transforming the living to meet Him in the air precludes Him being on earth to deal with the devil at the valley of Armegeddon.... and precludes the first resurrection of those said saints as described as coming out of those conditions designated as being of the great tribulation.
The conundrum remains in regards to your point of view.
So that is the conundrum of your presentation, Gideon. How can the raptured saints that meet the Lord in the air and come back with Him be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and placed into the pit for the 1000 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow
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Thank you for attempting to explain your views in light of the conundrum, but you had overlooked something important.
If those that are Christ be risen from the dead first and those that are alive and remain shall be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet the Lord and them in the air, then who are those being resurrected after the devil was thrown into the pit?
Below is your reference:
Are you saying that the Lord deals with the devil first and then resurrect the dead in Christ and changed the living to meet Him in the air afterwards? Because that is when the first resurrection is to take place.
I am not sure how that can be seen as coming to Earth with the saints if Jesus was already there, defeating the devil, and throwing him into the pit and then "ascend" in order to descend to come back to the earth with the saints.
Am I explaining clearly why I am having trouble seeing your point of view?
The raising of the dead in Christ and transforming the living to meet Him in the air precludes Him being on earth to deal with the devil at the valley of Armegeddon.... and precludes the first resurrection of those said saints as described as coming out of those conditions designated as being of the great tribulation.
The conundrum remains in regards to your point of view.
Gideon said, we can look at many scriptures to prove that the saints are first in order to meet the Lord in the air. As[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]shadrach meshach and Abednego, they, the ruptured saints must be immortalized first before they accompany Christ to face the armies of Satan. Let’s not forget, as in II Thes 2, after we meet the Lord in the air and are changed in a twinkling of the eye, we continue the descent with Christ whom is descending. I am not sure why you remain puzzled. The Brilliance of His epiphany or shekinah destroys Satan. This I power of His Revelation. It is not much of a fight; Satan is slaughtered instantly by the Glory of God. Being gathered at the winepress or Valley, the earth opens her mouth and crushes the armies whom appose God and Israel in the valley. They blood rises to the height of the horse’s bridal; the birds gather for a feast and eat the flesh of kings and mighty men. As Christ descends, I can picture a fire burning before him to incinerate all the dross on earth. Clearly this is what is happening. All the high towers or skyscrapers fall and are literally incinerated before the armies of Christ and before Christ. We being in an immortal state are not harmed by the fire. Not a hair is singed, nor will we smell like smoke. Satan’s being is decimated before the presence of a Holy God; certainly we must be immortalized to stand before God in all His Glory. God has an apantesis in the air with us to do that as He descends. The antichrist sees Christ coming, and he makes a last ditch effort to deceive the nations again, and gathers all the nations in the Valley of Megiddo, Jehoshaphat, Armageddon, as you may we may call it. We see throughout Revelation many references of Satan being angry because he knows Jesus is on the throne and will take over the kingdoms of earth.
After Satan is throne in the pit we see the there is not resurrection until the 1000 years are up. You are confusing yourself, by thinking the first resurrection occurs after Satan is thrown in the pit. The obvious has already occurred, the saints are already raised. For such we read, 3[SIZE=3]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [/SIZE] 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
They are already living on earth; judgment is given to them, for they shall be kings a priest unto our God now, and we shall judge the nations and the world. For such we see the thrones and them sitting upon them. When Christ makes his approach to earth, we see in Revelation 6 He is already on a heavenly throne, which puts the men of earth in Great fear; for such they cry to the rocks and mountains fall on us and hide us from him that sits on the throne. For the Great Day of His wrath hath come. This below is merely emphasizing what has already, obviously taken place. It is giving a statement for an opening inauguration of the Millennial Kingdom. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. They are living already, John is merely seeing them reigning on earth. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John then tells us that all that are raised in the first resurrection, not just the Tribulation martyrs, are blessed and holy. This is the last day. Let’s not forget what Jesus has already told us about the last day. John confirms that also in Revelation 10 and 11. Now if you do not believe Jesus will raise everyone on the last day here is plenty of proof for you.
[CENTER]first. Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at thelastday. Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at thelastday. Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at thelastday. Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at thelastday. Jhn 7:37
In thelastday, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at thelastday. Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in thelastday.
[/CENTER]
Now remember we said that saints whom rose when Jesus was here will rise again. Martha confirms that with Lazarus. What you must understand is that when Jesus raised these folks from the dead, they arose in mortal bodies. When he raises Lazarus again from the dead on the last day, he will raise him to a newness of immortal life. Lazarus will never die again after he is raised on the last day. When Christ resurrected Lazarus 2000 years ago, Lazarus rose from the dead, lived a natural life and died and went to glory. This next time around he will rise and be partaker with us in the immortal kingdom on earth, whose domain has not end.
[CENTER]I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13
¶
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
[/CENTER]
[SIZE=3]Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom[/SIZE]
After Satan is throne in the pit we see the there is not resurrection until the 1000 years are up. You are confusing yourself, by thinking the first resurrection occurs after Satan is thrown in the pit.
As far as the chronological order of the reference you gave, the first resurrection is after Satan is thrown in the pit.
Requoted below is your reference:
Quote:
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
The whole theme of the book of Revelation is God's work in Jesus for our redemption.
God uses symbolism in the stories in the bible to show us His works of redemption.
Apply the following verses as keys to unlocking some of the symbols.
Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
Deu 1:11 (The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
So what does a 1,000 years mean if God uses terms like "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands"?
Should we focus on the thousands or should we focus on the work that Christ did, which the thoousnads are trying to show us?
Blessings, AJ
12-15-2009, 07:24 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Enow, The Lord is not on earth when Ch.20:1 takes place.
In Rev.19:11 'the heaven was opened...' Christ is in Heaven judging the armies and then an angel calls all the birds to eat the flesh of them in v.17.
In 20:1 Another angel coming down from heaven is the one who takes hold of Satan not Jesus.
Then in 20:4 the 1st resurrection happens as Christ decends according to I Thess.4. John tells us that those who were in the tribulation and are in Christ will rise and reign with Him just like those who have died prior to the tribulation and the mark of the beast. Both are part of the 1st resurrection. There is no pre-1st resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and Paul gives the order in I Cor.15 - there is only Christ and then those who are his at His coming - that is it for all the righteous until Jesus' return.
The judgment of the armies really only takes a moment of time - by the word of the Lord - the sword that proceeds from His mouth. I do not see any conundrum.
Enow, The Lord is not on earth when Ch.20:1 takes place.
In Rev.19:11 'the heaven was opened...' Christ is in Heaven judging the armies and then an angel calls all the birds to eat the flesh of them in v.17.
In 20:1 Another angel coming down from heaven is the one who takes hold of Satan not Jesus.
Then in 20:4 the 1st resurrection happens as Christ decends according to I Thess.4. John tells us that those who were in the tribulation and are in Christ will rise and reign with Him just like those who have died prior to the tribulation and the mark of the beast. Both are part of the 1st resurrection. There is no pre-1st resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and Paul gives the order in I Cor.15 - ...
Without the Living Oracles to teach one, there is no possible understanding of the order of the harvests of earth.
The "Firstfruits" offering of earth's "first" harvest of sons of God is Christ and those whom He raised with Him, who came out of their graves, bodily, at His resurrection from the dead, and who were His own offering in the heavenly temple, taken there and offered by Himself, as High Priest of earth, mid-morning, on the day of the celebration of "First of Firstfruits".
Then, without understanding the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name, there is no possible way to understand the order of the first resurrection, which is typed in the oracles as the "First of Firstfruits", celebrated on the first, first day of the week after Passover, and the later ingathering of the first harvest and celebration of it, on Pentecost, and then no way to understand the later gleanings which are those martyrs raised at the end of the great tribulation, who are gathered from the "ends of heaven" at the return of Jesus Christ to earth, and who are judged by Him, gathered there by the angels along with the living souls who are alive on earth who are Jacob's seed and who are called "the elect". These who are called to be gathered at the end of the tribulation along with the living on earth, "elect" seed =the descendants of Jacob, are gathered to stand before Christ Jesus at Sinai -in the wilderness- as Ezekiel tells in chapter 20:33-44, correlating with Jesus words in Matthew 24, Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other - and correlates with 1 Enoch chapter 1, quoted by Jude.
Then, those 144,000 of Israel who are not part of the first harvest but who are part of the last harvest which is to come at the end of the thousand year reign, and which is typed in Tabernacles, are taken to Zion above, in translated bodies, without dying, mid-tribulation, as the "Firstfruits" of the last harvest; where they remain for the entire millennial reign, not having to do with anything on earth anymore, until the City of God comes down from God out of heaven, at the end of the Millennial reign and regeneration of the heavens and the earth; just as Enoch was translated to glory and had nothing more to do with earth anymore, pre-flood, and who also is in Mount Eden/Mount Zion of the heavenlies. Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
As far as the chronological order of the reference you gave, the first resurrection is after Satan is thrown in the pit.
Requoted below is your reference:
Not my fault that I am confused by your view.
.
Gideon said no it seems all references seem to show otherwise. If you look at Revelation 6 and 20 it depicts a resurrection of saints after the sixth seal is open. The great men of the earth are still crying to the mountains fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. Then later on in the end of the sixth seal we see the saints surrounding the throne of him who has come to judge and make war, Christ. So though the saints are resurrected and stand round about the enormous heavenly throne, the judgment on earth is not complete. In revelation 20 the saints are already resurrected, even before Satan is thrown in the pit. That is how I see it. They are too many references in scripture to not conclude this. But even if they are resurrected after Satan is thrown in the pit, it makes no difference as all these events occur on the last day of Satan's rule on earth. Christ takes over the kingdom. There cannot be two first resurrections; even the thought of it sounds illogical. But all references in scripture depict an immortalized body or church first, and then they descend with Christ to make war against Satan. Chapter 19 seems to present the chronology you mention, but if you look at it closely, the saints are already raised when Satan is thrown in the pit. I believe all this reference is telling us is that the resurrected saints are set to rule and judge on earth as kings and priest unto the world, under the authority of Christ, after Satan is cast into the pit. They reign and rule with Christ, all those of the first resurrection. It does not necessarily mean they are resurrected after Satan is cast into the pit; I personally think this occurs before; II Thes and Revelation 6, 11, etc. seems to give a direct chronology of the events that transpire, while Revelation 19 seems to demonstrate the kingship and priesthood of the already risen saints during the millennium. Revelation 20 is merely identifying these saints whom enter the millennium to reign and rule with Christ as being the first resurrection, but as I said, all text seem to indicate the resurrection has already occurred, even in Chapter 19. For we shall war and judge with Christ as he takes over the kingdom and defeats Satan. Perhaps you are correct, the first resurrection may take place after Satan is thrown in the pit. One thing for sure, it does not occur seven years earlier, but rather on the last day, at the end of the GT, There is not one verse in scripture to prove a pre-tribulation resurrection, but there are many to prove a post.
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-16-2009 at 09:57 PM..
Enow, The Lord is not on earth when Ch.20:1 takes place.
In Rev.19:11 'the heaven was opened...' Christ is in Heaven judging the armies and then an angel calls all the birds to eat the flesh of them in v.17.
In 20:1 Another angel coming down from heaven is the one who takes hold of Satan not Jesus.
Then in 20:4 the 1st resurrection happens as Christ decends according to I Thess.4. John tells us that those who were in the tribulation and are in Christ will rise and reign with Him just like those who have died prior to the tribulation and the mark of the beast. Both are part of the 1st resurrection. There is no pre-1st resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and Paul gives the order in I Cor.15 - there is only Christ and then those who are his at His coming - that is it for all the righteous until Jesus' return.
The judgment of the armies really only takes a moment of time - by the word of the Lord - the sword that proceeds from His mouth. I do not see any conundrum.
And how does the depiction in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter work towards Him destroying that son of perdition by the brghtness of His coming?
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
I see Him coming to earth with the saints to set up His milleniel reign.
And those saints with Him are the ones raptured before the great tribulation as they are the first fruits of the resurrection... the first inheritance of the vessels unto honour for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
1 Corinthians 15: 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
I see three harvests making up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
That's pre tribulational harvest
post tribulational harvest
end of milleniel reign after the defeat of Satan for the last time: harvest
Anyway, in regards to Gideon's reference... it wasn't tracking as far as his point of view was concerned.
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