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Robertwr theorizes in the O.P. “The first resurrection is when a person is "born anew...born of the water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5).”
JoJo-50 replied in post # 9 “I'm sorry but at ,(John 3:3-5), ISN'T referring to ANY Resurrection, Jesus was referring to being baptized “
I think Robertwr’s attempt to create and systematize a new Christian theory regarding "the first resurrection" will need more work. For example, I agree with JoJo-50 on this specific point. Robertwr’s premise is illogical and contextually inaccurate on this point. Thus, any conclusions based on this premise will be inaccurate and skewed by the faulty premise.
The early Christians would not have held to this theory that baptism was the first resurrection (though one can certainly connect the coming out of the water of baptism as a symbol of resurrection). Though such symbolic connections existed, in early judeo-christianity, the resurrection generally referred to the “re” (again) “surrection” (rising up) of a re-united body and spirit such as happened to Jesus' spirit and body (as well as to many of the saints who arose and appeared to many) at the time of Jesus' resurrection after his body had lain in the tomb for three days.
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matt 27:52–53 kjv) These saints whose spirits were being re-united with their bodies, and who went into Jerusalem and appeared to and talked with others in the early traditions had undergone the first resurrection.
Clear
ειφιφιδρω
Last edited by Clear lens; 10-09-2013 at 10:45 AM..
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matt 27:52–53 kjv) These saints whose spirits were being re-united with their bodies, and who went into Jerusalem and appeared to and talked with others in the early traditions had undergone the first resurrection. Clear
ειφιφιδρω
No, Not clear ?
The bodies arose [ Not resurrected ] but their corpses were lifted up exposed by the earth splitting. That upheaval tossed lifeless bodies out into the open for all to see. It was the living ones who saw the happening that went into the city to appear before many. Living witnesses in the city because:
Isn't Jesus ' firstborn from the dead ' according to Colossians 1 v 18 ? [ No one resurrected to heaven before Jesus ]
No one went to heaven before Jesus went to heaven - John 3 v 13
So, there was No first or earlier resurrection ahead of God resurrecting Jesus out of hell [ the Bible's grave ]
Also, please note Revelation [ 1 v 10 ] is written and set for our day or time frame, Not the first century.
The first-century people did Not have the book of Revelation.
That first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20 v 6 is for our time frame. [ Daniel 7 v 18 ]
Enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing by the end of Jesus 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.- 1st Cor. 15 v 26
I am of the understanding that the Christ all see in the Parousia will not reign on this Earth (unless it's briefly to set foot on the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14:4),
and the 1,000 years is not to be taken literally (2 Peter 3:8).
There will be a New Earth (exceedingly larger, as the 12,000x12,0000 furlongs New Jerusalem
serves example) and a New Heaven (they will be One, no longer separated) and from there His
Reign is. This Earth will be destroyed. The former Heaven will spill out to us.
All will be new. Restoration of All Things.
1) Robertwr theorizes in the O.P. “The first resurrection is when a person is "born anew...born of the water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5).”
2) JoJo-50 replied in post # 9 “I'm sorry but at ,(John 3:3-5), ISN'T referring to ANY Resurrection, Jesus was referring to being baptized “
3) Clear lens said in post #23 I think Robertwr’s attempt to create and systematize a new Christian theory regarding "the first resurrection" will need more work. For example, I agree with JoJo-50 on this specific point. Robertwr’s premise is illogical and contextually inaccurate on this point. Thus, any conclusions based on this premise will be inaccurate and skewed by the faulty premise.
The early Christians would not have held to this theory that baptism was the first resurrection (though one can certainly connect the coming out of the water of baptism as a symbol of resurrection). Though such symbolic connections existed, in early judeo-christianity, the resurrection generally referred to the “re” (again) “surrection” (rising up) of a re-united body and spirit such as happened to Jesus' spirit and body (as well as to many of the saints who arose and appeared to many) at the time of Jesus' resurrection after his body had lain in the tomb for three days.
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matt 27:52–53 kjv) These saints whose spirits were being re-united with their bodies, and who went into Jerusalem and appeared to and talked with others in the early traditions had undergone the first resurrection.
4) Matthew 4:4 responded in post #23 “ The bodies arose [ Not resurrected ] but their corpses were lifted up exposed by the earth splitting. That upheaval tossed lifeless bodies out into the open for all to see.“
Hi Matthew 4:4 :
Your theory that decomposing dead bodies of Christians were somehow “tossed” out of graves all the way from the graveyards outside of the city and “tossed” from outside of the city all the way into Jerusalem city and “appeared to many” is fraught with many difficulties. For example, your theory depends upon selective and unbelievable geological physics that mimic those we saw in cartoons as children. Your interpretation of matthew 27:52-53 is absent from the earliest historical literature or Christian traditions that I am aware of. Your theory that Matthew 27:52-53 involved dead bodies thrown from the ground considerable distances is inconsistent with early judeo-christian claims as well.
For example, consider an example from the early Christian decensus literature. In this text, many of the religious leaders are discussing their amazement at the resurrection of Jesus. In the midst of their wonderment, Joseph (of Arimathea) says to those discussing Jesus resurrection : “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)
These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon who were NOT Christians while they were alive. These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described both this world of spirits and the decensus and happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc). In such early texts, the early texts are not describing dead and decomposed bodies. None of these early decensus literature describe anything near what you are claiming as an interpretation.
Your interpretation which does not appear historically, among the early Judeo-Christian genre of Decensus literature has to compete with the earliest Christian interpretations that do appear in their literature and has, as it’s central theme, the visitation of Jesus to the spirits in the world of spirits (the very spirits we are discussing the resurrection of).
Not only does your theory have to overcome comic-book physics; and overcome selective dead bodies fly large distances through the air from distant graveyards, into Jerusalem where they “appear to many”; and overcome an abscence in the early judeo-christian traditions, but your interpretation is less contextually credible than the early Christian claims and their interpretation of these verses. The early Christians witnessed to us in their interpretations that Matthew 27:52-53 can be taken at face value to mean just what it appears to mean.
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matt 27:52–53 kjv)
In any case, I believe we are all allowed to create theories and model as to what we think is going on in the early texts. Good luck in coming up with your models.
Regarding Matthew 27:52-53 : And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Kjv)
Hi Matthew 4:4 :
I’ve thought about your theory that Matthew 27:52-53 refers to “...corpses were lifted up exposed by the earth splitting.” and which then were “...tossed [as] lifeless bodies out into the open ...” all the way from the graveyards outside of Jerusalem, INTO Jerusalem "...for all to see...”. I believe this theogy is an interesting example of a contamination of doctrine and I assume it was created to protect or support another doctrine.
Though I am not particularly interested in the theory as a representation of authentic christian doctrine, I am interested in defining this theory and in discovery of what time period this theory originated and the circumstances under which it originated.
Would you be so good as to discuss these points with us?
Defining the theory of “TOSSING DEAD BODIES” (you haven’t mentioned an actual name for your theory yet...) :
1) DEFINING THE ACTUAL “TOSSING OF DEAD BODIES”
Since the text in Matthew refers to “bodies of the saints”, does your theory include ONLY the decomposing “bodies of Saints” being tossed into the city of Jerusalem or does your theory include the decomposing bodies of “non-saints” being tossed as well? I assumed your theory includes equality in tossing since your theory seems to suggest a physical “splitting” of the earth that is somewhat random, as opposed to a specific and localized geological occurrence that involved ONLY tossing the bodies from graves of the “saints”.
IF ONLY saints bodies were tossed, then I assume your theory involves divine intervention to explain the exclusive tossing of only the decomposing bodies of saints from the graveyards outside of Jerusalem, through the air whereby they ended up inside jerusalem where they then “appeared to many”.
IF BOTH saints AND jewish decomposing bodies were randomly tossed from their graves from the graveyards outside Jerusalem over great distances so that they ended up inside Jerusalem where they then “appeared to many”, does your theory have an explanation why such a miraculous occurrence doesn’t appear in any early Jewish or other historical texts of the time?
IF your theory assumes a divine mechanism for this “tossing of bodies”; does your theory propose a reason why God specifically tossed decomposing bodies of Saints from a graveyard outside Jerusalem, all the way into Jerusalem so as to have these dead and decomposing bodies “appear to many”? Does your theory propose a religious and symbolic meaning for this unusual tossing of bodies?
2) PROPOSED REASONS FOR A LACK OF HISTORICAL TEXTUAL DATA DOCUMENTING THE TOSSING OF DEAD BODIES
If EITHER the dead and decomposing bodies of Saints ONLY; OR the dead and decomposing bodies of Saints AND Jews were “tossed” out of the graveyards outside of Jerusalem and landed inside Jerusalem, how does your theory of body “tossing” account for the lack of either sacred or profane historical accounts of this occurrence?
IF dead and decomposing bodies HAD been tossed over large distances from a graveyard outside of Jerusalem through the air and landing INTO Jerusalem, one would assume that this occurrence would have generated some controversy and this singular occurrence would have been described in detail in some historical text of the time. How does your theory explain it’s absence from any historical record of the period?
3) PROPOSED REASONS FOR LACK OF DATA GEOLOGICAL FOR SPLITTING AND TOSSING
Definition is needed for type of splitting
Does your theory define whether the various splittings of the earth involved JUST the various specific graves of Saints, or does it include Jewish grave splitting or does your theory involve “random” splitting of the earth or some other mechanism to explain graves splitting?
Proposed mechanisms for splitting/tossing and then for repair of earth need to be developed
One would presume that, if enough “tossing force” had been generated to first, “split the earth” over a grave, and then toss the body through the air over large distances that would exist between Jerusalem and it’s graveyard outside of the city, that sufficient force would be involved to create larger geological splits and evidence than just specific grave sites.
How does your theory account for the lack of geographical evidence of such large geological forces? Especially if such forces involve one grave and not the one beside it?
4) HISTORICITY OF THIS INTERPRETATIVE THEORY
The early Judeo-Christians developed their traditions and interpretations regarding resurrection and these bodies that “arose and went into jerusalem and appeared to many” in a very early stage in the christian movement and thus the early texts describe their interpretation and traditions.
When is the first time your interpretation and theory was described in any of the earliest judeo-christian literature? For example, if the first time this theory of body tossing appears in judeo-christian literature is 1959, then your theory is a very young theory and will have even more difficulty competing with the earliest Judeo-Christian traditions that are millenia-old theories and have a much greater chance, historically, of being authentic and original Christian orthodoxy.
My point is, that your theory has some difficulties and, if you have not worked out these difficulties, then this theory of yours that involves the splitting of graves and tossing of decomposing bodies by God for some, as yet, unknown religious reason will not become popular or gain much traction. I am not saying your theory is correct or incorrect, but merely that you will need to work on this theory for it to become popular.
In any case Matthew 4:4, I wish you the very best of luck, coming to accurate conclusions in this life as to what you are going to believe. I actually AM interested in where your theory originated and when and the motivations underlying it's inception. If you know anything about it's origin in any early judeo-christian literature, I'd like to see it and learn more about it.
Isn't Scripture [ Christian literature ] stating that Jesus is first born from the dead [ 1st to be resurrected ] ?
Didn't Jesus teach [John 3 v 13 ] No one ascended before him?
Even King David did not ascend.- Acts 2 v 34
Neither did faithful John the Baptist. - Matthew 11 v 11
So, there is No way those saints [ holy ones] had an earlier first resurrection before Jesus.
The earlier or first resurrection is mentioned in connection to the Lord's Day [ Revelation 1 v 10 ] mentioned at Rev. 20 v 6 not earlier than that.
Also, Matthew does not write all of the saints [holy ones ] were raised up, but wrote Many bodies.....
Those called to heaven are Not resurrected in a visible physical body, but like Jesus resurrected in a spirit [ invisible ] body.
That is why Jesus used different materialized bodies after his resurrection [ and before his ascension ] to heaven.
The ones who went forth from the memorial tombs, they then would have to be the living ones who entered the city because Matthew is not contradicting Scripture.
"born once, die twice; .... Born twice, die once!"
Amen! Praise God for His goodness toward us in Christ Jesus taking what we deserve to receive as sinners on that Cross! Jesus died so we don't have to.. All that believe in Him will be part of the first resurrection unto life prior to His 1000 year reign on Earth leading to the New Heavens and New Earth and ultimately Judgment at the Great White Throne in the second resurrection according to Scripture.
The early Judeo-Christian decensus literature describe Jesus' descension into sheol/hades and freeing those in that world of spirits who then are resurrected AFTER God the Father resurrects Jesus, verse # 53 makes clear "... and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many...".
I can't tell if your theory of tossing dead bodies has the bodies tossed into Jerusalem before Jesus' resurrection or after, but I assume the bodies were tossed after Jesus' resurrection. Is this correct?
In any case, I am interested in how your theory started; when it started and the motivation to create it. I appreciate any information you can give me concerning your theory.
Thanks
Clear lens
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