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As a matter of fact, I WAS one of those veterans and soldiers who went to the Middle East. But, I never felt like I was fighting for my right to speak or to choose what I want. Those who feel the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about protecting our freedoms of speech or thought are sorely mistaken.
There is absolutely nothing noble about warfare, about bloodshed, or about dying for a cause. Those who feel so are only doomed to perpetuate such atrocities throughout the rest of human history.
We offer our thanks and gratitude to them because we understand the plight of their situation and what they sacrificed due to circumstances out of their control. The troops in the Middle East don't dictate policy, they don't make policy, and they certainly don't hold the rest of America accountable for giving them thanks (or not giving them thanks). That is what is to be admired about them. Anybody who views the death of one of them as "glorious" or "noble" is only voicing the same rhetoric that the terrorists do - that their death is glorious and noble and "worth" something. When, in the end, the lifeless body of a fallen soldier usually only amounts to a headline article, a name on a wall, and a picture on someone's mantelpiece. There's nothing glorious in any of that - ask any Medal of Honor winner.
True. I don't have anything to worry about at all and I sincerely don't.
However, the popular word on the street is that if I don't accept the sacrifice of Jesus as some noble cause, as some gesticulation of superior humanity, or as the atonement for all the things I (as well as the rest of mankind) have ever done wrong in my life, then I get punished for it.
To use your "Troops in the Middle East" analogy: It's like saying that I must show thanks to the troops who died (or put their lives on the line) because their death was "noble" and "glorious." It wasn't noble and glorious. I am, however, grateful for their sacrifices because I realize the impertinent, inhumane, and caustic way they died as a result of human barbarism - not because they wanted to hold their deaths over our heads as what should be a token of our appreciation.
Thus, my initial stance remains unchanged. If I am being forced to worship the death of Jesus as a "glorious" and "noble" one, then I find no connection with it at all. Any God who demands as such is not only barbaric himself but on the same level of any terrorist who insists their martyrdom is "righteous," "noble," and "glorious" as well.
Amen to that...i am a veteran of Desert Storm and it was all about protecting the oil not about freedom of speech...this battle going on now is about someone slapped us and we are going to slap him back so hard he thinks twice about messing with us ever again...9/11 was not about our freedoms but about shaming us or showing us whos boss and it was done by a bunch of fellows who misinterpret the koran's teachings...war is never pretty...sometimes it is a nesseccary evil...i certainly would not back down from a fight...but i much prefer peace and sitting on the front porch with my wife watching the sun rise and set and seeing the beauty of the world around us...
The fact that you as an unbeliever are here to read this shows that it is a good place to post the Gospel. People come onto this forum out of curiosity and some may have some interest in learning about Christ. Now, there's a lot here that is not in the least bit Christian. But that is an unfortunate reality. It only takes one person responding positively to the Gospel to make it worth posting here.
To be blunt, God didn't ask for your input. Or anyone elses. What God does, He does for His pleasure, His purpose, His glory. God's plan of salvation existed in His mind from eternity past, long before any human being was around to have any 'input.'
Everyone who is born into the human race was selected by God to be born. No one had any choice in the matter. No one existed so that they might have a choice in the matter. But having been selected by God to be born, we are born with free will, and God holds us responsible for how we use that free will.
Our own personal sins were never imputed to us for judgment. We are not condemned on the basis of our own personal sins. Our personal sins were temporarily set aside until that time in human history when in the fullness of time, Christ came into the world and went to the Cross so that He could die a substitutionary spiritual death on our behalf, and pay the penalty for our Sins.
The only sin that resulted in the spiritual death of everyone who is born, is Adams original sin. The human race is seminally in Adam. And because Adam is the federal head of the human race, it was his sin that God charged to the entire human race. The reason that God did this was to bring the entire human race under the umbrella of grace. He did this so that by the finished work of one man, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, the many (whosoever believes in Him), might be justified in the eyes of God through faith in Christ Jesus, and therefore pass from spiritual death into eternal life in the presence of God.
This is the reality of our existance. God created the human race, He has revealed Himself through human history in various ways of His choosing. He has made salvation possible through faith in Jesus Christ, and He holds us responsible for our volitional decision to either accept His offer of salvation or to reject it.
Therefore the choice is yours.
Acts 16:31 ''...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''
The issue is;
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.''
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
The choice is yours. It is the greatest decision you will ever make in your life, and the results of that decision have eternal ramifications. Eternity in the presence of God or eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. It is not a decision to be taken lightly. But it is your decision.
We are not born with free will, if we were how could we be slaves to sin? and if we choose not to be slaves to sin then we need not believe in Christ...because we are chosing not to be sinners on our own...
Most of the suggestions here are HILARIOUS! I will personally tell you that most atheists and agnostics will simply just laugh at the suggestions here because I am one myself.
Taking religion for a "test drive" and trying to sell it like a car is stupid since most atheists have already done the research and come to the conclusion that the Bible is the only authority on Jesus' existence and "proof" that miracles occurred, and as such cannot be refuted or confirmed and thus religion has to be taken on "faith" which is a shaky argument. It's like the lotto. Better double down or else!
Further, trying to argue with them that they're going to suffer fire and brimstone will simply harden their positions. It will not work. Scaring people into believing went out of fashion fairly recently since most people are educated now to question their faith. Arguing with them will go something like this:
Believer: "You're gonna go to hell! Believe in God and be saved!"
Atheist: "What proof do you have?"
Believer: "The Bible!" or "Personal witness!"
Atheist: "Considering the Bible is a sole source of knowledge, that's not enough for me." or "Well that's nice that you have a personal experience to use - I do not, and thus, it does not apply to me."
Science and logic are the religion of most atheists and agnostics. As such you have to argue with them on logical and scientific fact and demonstration. Since the Bible cannot be refuted or confirmed, science is useless to use to argue with them.
The best argument you can make to have someone join a religion is to appeal to the emotional side and demonstrate through acts of kindness and charity. Even if they do not choose to be "saved" by saying they believe, they will do good acts and then come to their own conclusions.
The issue in presenting the Gospel is simply to give the information and leave the results in Gods hands. It is not the responsibility of a believer to try and convince anyone to believe, though obviously there are some Christians or those who profess to be Christians, who do not understand this. Some people will believe the Gospel and many will not. It is strictly a matter between them and God. The fact that they don't believe in God notwithstanding. There are no Madison Avenue techniques involved in presenting the Gospel. Just give the good news and that's that.
Now, as I have said twice I think already, on a forum such as this, many things get discussed besides the Gospel. The subject of eternal condemnation comes up. The lake of fire comes up. These are not good news, they are not a part of the Gospel. But as a separate subject on the forum they come up. And they will continue to come up.
Until a person makes the decision to believe in Christ, he is an unbeliever. The fact that he is searching notwithstanding. You speak for yourself. You don't speak for anyone else. Many who are unbelievers now will be believers later. Many will not. God will get the Gospel to those who are interested, and many who are not interested will also come into contact with it. And so the volitional issue comes into play. Believe the Gospel or reject it. God gives everyone the opportunity to make the choice.
No one can believe the Gospel unless God regenerates his spirit...and not all spirits are regenerated...only those God has predetermined shall be called...
This is what you're ultimately coming down on the side of though, isn't it? For all the eloquence, all the nice thoughts and explanations of why Jesus came and all the apologetics involved with a nice, friendly answer - it boils down to veiled threats at the hands of a celestial monster.
This is not only the annoying and arrogant thing about fundamentalist Christianity, but it's also one of the largest problems with it. There's something about it that gives you the self-perceived right to speak down to me with the conviction that this is not just what you believe but what you know is true. The second anyone begins to speak to me about theological implications with the arrogant position of what they know rather than what they believe, is the second they begin to lose me.
You impute to me that you know there is a God who demands such pithy and pathetic groveling, submission, and ass-kissing to the extent that you try to force me to make a decision. The concept of that is not love, is not justice, and is not fairness. It's mandated brain-washing at the threat of eternal torture.
Ask yourself what is different between a North Korean dissident who refuses to worship 'The Dear Leader' as his 'Almighty' and an unbeliever who refuses to worship your God as my 'Almighty?' They both share a very similar fate. One will almost definitely end up in a gulag, tortured for the rest of his life until he's finally killed. The other, according to the celestial monstrosity you believe in, will be sent to Hell, tortured in unmerciful pain for the rest of eternity. In fact, one might be prone to saying that the only advantage to living in North Korea as opposed to living in a Celestial Totalitarian State is that at least you can die and get the hell out of North Korea!
And that's what it ultimately boils down to. It's not about recognizing anything "noble" about Jesus' sacrifices; it's not about finding anything the whole of humanity can connect with. It's ultimately about fear - the fear of torture, of eternal despair and horror. If that's what you want to worship then go ahead. But, don't talk to me as though it's something you feel I should even consider as being worthy of consideration for me to worship.
Not only am I glad that I don't believe in such a thing but I am very grateful there is no evidence to support such a maniacal, sick and twisted celestial dictator.
Keep pressing on though... I'm sure you'll scare someone into submission with fear tactics and veiled threats. But, it won't be me.
Leave it to you to spew such venom at our God. Try and re-read your angry childish language at someone you believe does not exist? How strange is that? Yelling and name calling? Come on isn't that a bit infantile?
Oh we see because you've already cussed out a being you believe doesn't exist, and well by golly, your so great you resist to the bitter end what next your going to grab your little gold AK47 and shoot at the sky? Silly
He is an American Soldier...we don't use AK-47's...you might mean M-16's...
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
No one can believe the Gospel unless God regenerates his spirit...and not all spirits are regenerated...only those God has predetermined shall be called...
We are not born with free will, if we were how could we be slaves to sin? and if we choose not to be slaves to sin then we need not believe in Christ...because we are chosing not to be sinners on our own...
We are born spiritually dead because we are born with Adams original sin imputed to our genetically acquired old sin nature. God provided the solution to our problem of being spiritually dead. That solution is the Cross. It is through the Cross, the work of Christ on the Cross, that God extends His offer of salvation. God gave us free will so that we can make the decision to accept that offer through faith in Christ or to reject the offer. Every time you see a salvation passage which tells you to believe, that is free will on your part. Believe or don't believe. Free will.
No one can believe the Gospel unless God regenerates his spirit...and not all spirits are regenerated...only those God has predetermined shall be called...
No. That is exactly 180 degrees backwards. No one is regenerated--born again until they believe the Gospel. That is until a person believes in Christ for salvation.
Regeneration is not to be confused with the ministry of the Holy Spirit in making the Gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel. The Gospel is presented to a person. The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. That person then decides to believe in Christ for salvation. Or he doesn't. If he does (his choice, free will) at that point, God the Holy Spirit takes that persons faith and carries it to the point of salvation. He makes that faith effective for salvation. At the point of faith in Christ after having understood the issue of salvation, the Holy Spirit then creates a human spirit and imputes it to that person. Then God the Father imputes His very own perfect righteousness to the newly recieved human spirit and pronounces that person justified. That person is then born again or regenerated.
The entire purpose of the Gospel message is to give the hearer knowledge of what Christ did on our behalf with regard to providing salvation so that we can be regenerated.
The idea that you must be regenerated before you can believe the Gospel is heresy.
The Gospel is presented-->the Gospel is understood-->if faith is then expressed toward Christ by the hearer of the Gospel-->The Holy Spirit regenerates that person--and he is born again.
I'll put it another way. Since regeneration is being born again, and since the entire point of the Gospel message is to bring the hearer of the Gospel to the point of believing in Christ so that he can be born again, then to say that you must be regenerated before you can believe the Gospel is to say that you must be born again before you can believe the Gospel so that you can be born again.
Regeneration is not to be confused with the ministry of God the Holy Spirit in making the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever. They are two entirely different things.
Salvation is offered to everyone.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
God calls man through the Gospel.
2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this purpose He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.''
But man must make the decision to answer the call.
John 3:36 He who believes the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
God reveils Himself to those who seek Him.
Jeremiah 29:13 ''And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.''
God insures that all who seek Him will be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel so that they may make the choice to believe in Christ or not.
It is not enough to seek God. You must believe specifically in Christ who Himself is God. And that is the point of the Gospel message. To believe in Christ for salvation.
Believe me. I am the furthest thing from a skeptic. I fully believe in the works of God, his punishments, and his rewards. I'm simply speaking to the atheist crowd and trying to bring them closer to our Lord.
Oh, ye of little faith! Why don't you spend less time being pessimistic and frustrated and whatever else about these people, and more time trying to bring them to the Lord. Believe me, He will take care of everything else. BELIEVE IT!
Here's a verse you could take a look at to understand what I mean:
Here's some verses:
Most people will spend eternity in the lake of fire. That is not pessimism, that is what the word of God says. Matthew 7:13-14.
And who said anything about being frustrated concerning the Gospel. I have said how many times now, that my only responsibility is to present the Gospel. Period. Don't make assumptions, and tend to your own business. Not mine or anyone elses.
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