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This is a dicey subject in my estimation, Sizzly. Some people grow up in homes where religion is not taught. Their nearly blank mental slate at an early age is not colored in for them with some religious bias painted for them by parents or guardians (as I was) which they fall back into later in life. I think those people are susceptible to conversion IF they have not been the types that have found additional reasons to reject religion for solid, concrete reasons. They basically are not religious because they still find no reason to. Put those same people in some serious hardships, jail, life-threatening illness or injury and they become open to the promises religion offers and conversion is indeed possible.
Now, atheists who have grown up without religion and then further turned off by it because of experience and/or educating themselves on the very human origins of religion are less likely to all of a sudden wake up to some divine truth in religion. Sure, in desperate circumstances some may try anything out of self-preservation, but even then, you wonder how sincere the conversion really is.
Then there are the other atheists (I know you are not asking about them). Those who were once Christians, ESPECIALLY devout ones who came to grips with flaw after flaw within their faith and found the courage to cast it aside NOT because they want to get buck wild but because they see things for what they really are. I'm not sure those types of atheists are going to return to faith after being on the other side of the fence.
This is why when I read stories of people who start with, "I was once an atheist..." I need to know WHERE they are coming from.
Yes, exactly. That is why I was so specific about the kind of converted Christian I am looking for.
I am hoping this subject is not so dicey that the person I am waiting to hear from does not exist.
I'm not nearly genius enough to have come up with these arguments myself. This is, in fact, Nietzsche himself, often invoked and so often misunderstood. "God" is a stickler of a word. Not believing in "God" comes with it the acceptance of personal perspective only, that there is no utter, no crystalline truth, nothing that transcends a personal sense of the world. Naturalism can only come to approximations, but atheism is rarely argued in those terms on the boards.
Certainly, the "scientific method" of hypothesis is invoked but that doesn't philosophically satisfy the problem of knowledge and certainty, certainties that are asserted but not philosophically substantiated. Of course, if this were just a "Hello, my name is..." forum, that would be fine. We all go our own ways, after all. But this is a philosophy forum and philosophy has to be applied.
There was recently a thread where the linguist Noam Chomsky was mentioned, and I posted a link to an essay regarding his theory of universal grammar. The major problem, sending me back to the disappointments of my college studies, is the issue of Chomsky's presumption of the [quoting] ‘constative’ (this is the real truth because the universe is like that) but which are mainly ‘performative’ (this is the real truth because we say so and we are the most rational).
And this is the problem as ever. Now, of course, EVERYONE'S claiming authority here . That's the nature of religion. But, you see, atheists are doing the same thing and that authority through rationalism is contradicted by naturalism. And that leaves it questionable too, which is the nature of philosophy. It's a really interesting point of discussion but we can just never get to that point of discussion.
Let me just return briefly to my college disappointments. The orthodoxy of linguistics study, as it was taught to undergrads, was based on the scientific model and does indeed yield amazing advances in robotics, artificial intelligence, particular results in cognitive psychology and in the very interesting field of bio-linguistics, etc. But that approach is boxed and limiting and based on a dicey premise of scientific reduction, still unproven. Language itself is chaotic, irrational...fascinating...human. I go with the humanity of it because being human I don't want to miss the point. So here I am now, sitting between the irrational and the rational. Acknowledging both, and appreciating both.
Another return: Nietzsche: His own formula: If transcendence does not exist, then rationality cannot exist.
Bunjee, your posts are very interesting, and I appreciate your input, but the point I am trying to make with regards to atheism is that you don't need to know any of this to be an atheist. You don't need to know anything about philosophy at all.
I am still waiting to hear from atheists turned Christian.
Bunjee, your posts are very interesting, and I appreciate your input, but the point I am trying to make with regards to atheism is that you don't need to know any of this to be an atheist. You don't need to know anything about philosophy at all.
I am still waiting to hear from atheists turned Christian.
That I don't agree with. I think to be an atheist, without specific creed, you have to be far more rigorously philosophical (especially on a philosophy forum).
But I do understand the intention of your thread, and I don't want to hijack it. Cheers, and I mean it...! Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
Please believe that I am not trolling.
I would like to know if there are any Christians here who used to be atheists. I don't mean people who used to hate God, or people who grew up with religion, left for a while and then came back, or people who were agnostic.
I mean people who were raised in a secular household, truly had no belief in God, and then later in adulthood became a Christian. I have never met such a person. I have heard some Christians proclaim that they used to be atheists, and on further discussion I find they had not been an atheist, and really didn't understand what one was.
I would like to know if it is possible for person born and raised an atheist, such as myself, to find Jesus.
I assumed that you knew I was an atheist Sizzly for over 30 years . . . although I was nominally raised as a Catholic. I never believed any of it . . . but I did as I was told to get along. Most of the people around me growing up (including the adults) seemed more like children to me . . . a strange perspective for a child, I know. During my adolescent raging hormone period . . I made the official break and outed my atheism. I pursued Buddhism and meditation because the annihilation of all desire and Nirvana appealed to me (I was sick of life at an early age). You know the rest. So I would have to say it is definitely possible . . . I certainly wasn't looking for Jesus. He found me . . . big time.
I assumed that you knew I was an atheist Sizzly for over 30 years . . . although I was nominally raised as a Catholic. I never believed any of it . . . but I did as I was told to get along. Most of the people around me growing up (including the adults) seemed more like children to me . . . a strange perspective for a child, I know. During my adolescent raging hormone period . . I made the official break and outed my atheism. I pursued Buddhism and meditation because the annihilation of all desire and Nirvana appealed to me (I was sick of life at an early age). You know the rest. So I would have to say it is definitely possible . . . I certainly wasn't looking for Jesus. He found me . . . big time.
I've observed you long enough Mystic and I am willing to wager that for many of the Christians on this forum, you would NOT be considered their kind of Christian at all. Just your screen name alone (in their minds) suggests some kind of "new age" Christian which to them is oxymoronic. They would consider you a buffet styled Christian in the sense that it appears you do not hold to the same rigid interpretation of Christianity as they do starting with the bible being the literal, unadulterated, unchanged word of god. Yes, I've observed so to them, you claiming to convert to Christianity from being an atheist is not accurate. You might as well still be an atheist for all they care.
I assumed that you knew I was an atheist Sizzly for over 30 years . . . although I was nominally raised as a Catholic. I never believed any of it . . . but I did as I was told to get along. Most of the people around me growing up (including the adults) seemed more like children to me . . . a strange perspective for a child, I know. During my adolescent raging hormone period . . I made the official break and outed my atheism. I pursued Buddhism and meditation because the annihilation of all desire and Nirvana appealed to me (I was sick of life at an early age). You know the rest. So I would have to say it is definitely possible . . . I certainly wasn't looking for Jesus. He found me . . . big time.
Yes Mystic, I did think of you. But you are truly one of a kind.
I am aware that most Christians here do not consider you to be a Christian.
Yeah... Fully respecting the OP there is a hint of the "no true Scotsman" argument. Along with MysticPhD, I don't suppose I can prove my genuine affinity for atheism when I was an atheist, thus a bona fide target for this inquiry. I do recall another thread on left brain/right brain leanings and I scored a 10/10, though. Would that offer any substance to my claim?
Yes, exactly. That is why I was so specific about the kind of converted Christian I am looking for.
I am hoping this subject is not so dicey that the person I am waiting to hear from does not exist.
I'm sorry. 'Dicey' was a bad choice of words. I meant that the experience of an atheist is different from one to the next and when religious people point to an atheist who is now a Christian it is VERY important to know what kind of experience that atheist may have had up to the point where he or she became a Christian.
There are atheists who are just atheist because they never had any reason nor did they have anyone who ever pressured them with religion. They may have never been to church or had any serious conversation with a Christian or any religious person. They are REJECTING something as much as they are just ignorant of religious ideas except a concept here and there. Place that same person in a jail for 30 years to life, in a hospital with a disease like cancer, in a situation where they are in deep grief over a loss, throw them a Gospel tract, an Awake magazine with all its pretty pictures of a new earth with no more pain and suffering or let someone fill their ears with promises that "Jesus is gonna make it alright" starting with a conversion a prayer ad some faith and that "atheist" may find reason to lean on the hope and promises being offered.
I've observed you long enough Mystic and I am willing to wager that for many of the Christians on this forum, you would NOT be considered their kind of Christian at all. Just your screen name alone (in their minds) suggests some kind of "new age" Christian which to them is oxymoronic. They would consider you a buffet styled Christian in the sense that it appears you do not hold to the same rigid interpretation of Christianity as they do starting with the bible being the literal, unadulterated, unchanged word of god. Yes, I've observed so to them, you claiming to convert to Christianity from being an atheist is not accurate. You might as well still be an atheist for all they care.
I'm aware of that, Insane . . . but I since it was Sizzly (an atheist) . . . I just wanted to be sure she realized that it isn't necessary to fall into the magic BS and superstitious/supernatural claptrap that accompanies the typical Christian religion to discover that God is real and that our consciousness can in fact access His . . . whether looking for Him or not. The fact that so many Christians believe the wrong things about Him doesn't alter His reality one bit. The unmistakable and unconditional love and acceptance is overwhelming. It is impossible to believe it could be any other than the Jesus described in the scriptures. To be honest . . . the OT descriptions they find acceptable and claim to love are anathema to me (and should be to any decent loving person). Their OT God is a monster with no redeeming characteristics, IMO.
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. That's the nature of religion. But, you see, atheists are doing the same thing and that authority through rationalism is contradicted by naturalism. And that leaves it questionable too, which is the nature of philosophy. It's a really interesting point of discussion but we can just never get to that point of discussion.
