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The 144,000 is not what Paul was writing about in Romans 11:25. The 144,000 are not the nations. The complement of the nations are, well, you know, the nations, not Israelites. The 144,000 are Israelites from each tribe of Israel.
True Israelis Eusebius, the firstfruits, that is Jewish Christians, in the first century. Why do you think Dan Ephraim were left out, and the entire strand starting from Judah?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-29-2009 at 03:50 PM..
As to the secret given to Paul in Romans 11:25,26, please go through the entire Old Testament and try to find that the nations would be blessed APART from Israel. It aint in there.
No one knew Israel would be set aside until the complement of the nations enters. It is not in the O.T. It was a secret hidden from the former eons
The mystery
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
Here it is again, all the same elements
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Where did Paul get this stuff? How does Paul attempt to prove "the mystery" to the legalistic Jews? From the OT!
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
And "in thee" does not mean with the help of Israel according to the flesh. It means through faith in Abraham's seed, just as Abraham had faith in Christ. If it is through faith then it is not through Israel. it is APART from Israel according to the flesh.
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.
Here it is again, all the same elements
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Where did Paul get this stuff? How does Paul attempt to prove "the mystery" to the legalistic Jews? From the OT!
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
And "in thee" does not mean with the help of Israel according to the flesh. It means through faith in Abraham's seed, just as Abraham had faith in Christ. If it is through faith then it is not through Israel. it is APART from Israel according to the flesh.
First of all you are talking about different "mysteries" or secrets.
The secret of Ephesians 3:4 is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. The joint body of Jewish believers coming under the uncircumcision message of Paul with Gentiles under the uncircumcision message of Paul comprising the body of Christ was unheard of. In the Old Testament the nations were always prophecied to be blessed by Israel by being subservient to them, never by being on an equal par with them.
The secret of Romans 9-11 is not the same secret as the other secrets you bring up.
The secret of Romans 11:25 is this:
(Rom 11:25) For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
(Rom 11:26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
The above secret is unknown in the Old Testament that Israel would be calloused, cast aside and faith given to the nations apart from Israel.
Not only that, but Christ will not return until the complement of the nations enters which has not happened yet. I and many millions of believers among the nations testify to this saving apart from Israel. Israel has been cast aside for almost 2000 years.
sciotamicks, you did not answer this question posed to you earlier:
"What specific verse are you refering to in which optanomai is used?"
First of all you are talking about different "mysteries" or secrets.
Ok, I agree with that. They are related but not the same.
Quote:
The secret of Ephesians 3:4 is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. The joint body of Jewish believers coming under the uncircumcision message of Paul with Gentiles under the uncircumcision message of Paul comprising the body of Christ was unheard of.
I didn't say anyone "heard" what was there, only that it was there.
Quote:
In the Old Testament the nations were always prophecied to be blessed by Israel by being subservient to them, never by being on an equal par with them.
The scriptures foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith in Christ. How is that being blessed by becoming subservient to Israel?
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham
sciotamicks, you did not answer this question posed to you earlier:
"What specific verse are you refering to in which optanomai is used?"
I don't provide verses to you, because I would like you to look it up.
But you can start with Rev 1:7...here a link for you that shows you all the verses with the word contained within.
The secret of Ephesians 3:4 is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. The joint body of Jewish believers coming under the uncircumcision message of Paul with Gentiles under the uncircumcision message of Paul comprising the body of Christ was unheard of. In the Old Testament the nations were always prophecied to be blessed by Israel by being subservient to them, never by being on an equal par with them.
Bullllllooneeeyyy!!!
Doesn't your old testament have Isaiah 11 in it?
What do you think the clean(Jews) and unclean(gentile) animals lying down together were?
Oh wait...Are you a Jehovahs Witness? If so that would explain your thinking that Isaiah 11 is literal animals at some point in the future.
If not...Isaiah 11 is the passage you are looking for. Jews and Gentiles coming in under one banner--> Christ
Funny thing though...The mystery wasn't really that well hidden. Isaiah 11:10 “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.â€
I don't provide verses to you, because I would like you to look it up.
But you can start with Rev 1:7...here a link for you that shows you all the verses with the word contained within.
opthalmos is always used of the eyes, what the eyes see, in my bible. "Every eye shall see Him" does not mean people will see Him in their imagination like the Preterist **imagines** Christ came in 70 A.D.
Originally Posted by Eusebius The secret of Ephesians 3:4 is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. The joint body of Jewish believers coming under the uncircumcision message of Paul with Gentiles under the uncircumcision message of Paul comprising the body of Christ was unheard of. In the Old Testament the nations were always prophecied to be blessed by Israel by being subservient to them, never by being on an equal par with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychohmike
Bullllllooneeeyyy!!!
Doesn't your old testament have Isaiah 11 in it?
What do you think the clean(Jews) and unclean(gentile) animals lying down together were?
Oh wait...Are you a Jehovahs Witness? If so that would explain your thinking that Isaiah 11 is literal animals at some point in the future.
No, are you a Satan worshipper? If so that would explain your thinking on this whole topic.
Quote:
If not...Isaiah 11 is the passage you are looking for. Jews and Gentiles coming in under one banner--> Christ
Isaiah 11 has nothing to do with the secret given only to Paul to give to us of the nations in Romans 11:25,26.
Quote:
Funny thing though...The mystery wasn't really that well hidden. Isaiah 11:10 “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
See Eusebius...That was easy. Mystery solved!!!
That has nothing to do with Romans 11:25,26. Furthermore that has to do with Israel and any person of the nations being proselytized to the Jewish faith and being subservient to the 12.
Try to learn what secret we are talking about.
It was never revealed in the entire Old Testament that the nations would be blessed apart from Israel. When Israel was set aside God had to do a whole new thing. The nations are not subservient to Israel or the 12.
The secret of Romans 11:25,26 puts the nail in the coffin of Preterism. Jesus never arrived out of Zion and saved all Israel. The complement of the nations never entered.
Sure, and you, in your wild imagination believe chapters 1 - 9 already occurred. Yea, right. uh huh.
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