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It was a judgment. Any one who did see him perished.
No, false. No one saw Him and so no one perished for seeing Him because they couldn't see Him.
Where did Christ say that "when I return, every eye that sees Me shall perish"?
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Then its not in like manner and you have a contradiction. Its easily resolved by ceasing the nonsense of confusing the tribes of Israel with the nations. The Tribes of Israel did see Jesus come in judgment. Acts and Revelation are not a description of the same event.
"In like manner" does not mean "only 500 will see Him." In like manner means in a very visible manner every eye shall see Him just like the 500 saw Him leave in a very visible manner.
I am sure you do, but alas, those that can't see don't see.
That's true, but I thought if I pointed it out, you might see it.
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I already provided you a brief exegesis of the language, now it's your turn to study it to see if I am right, and provide me with a counter arguement.
Pretty sure "should" in Philippians 2:10-11 is a function of greek grammar (the subjunctive mood is required by the structure of the sentence) and has nothing to do with the maybeness of everyone bowing.
a) The ‘purpose clause’ (a dependent clause) is used to show the purpose or intention of the action of the main verb in the sentence (in the independent clause). This construction is meant to show intention, not to state whether something actually happens or not.
b) The purpose clause answers the question "Why?" or "For what reason?", rather than "What?".
c) The conjunction that precedes the subjunctive verb (usually i{na or o{pw") is translated "in order that" or possibly "that". For the sake of clarity, it is probably best translated "in order that".
d) If the subjunctive mood is used in a ‘purpose’ (or in a ‘result’) clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as the stated outcome that will happen (or has happened) as a result of another stated action. The use of the subjunctive is not to indicate that something ‘may’ or ‘might’ result from a given action, but it is stating the ‘purpose of’ or ‘reason for’ an action.
e) The subjunctive mood in a purpose clause actually functions more like a verb in the indicative mood rather than in the optative mood. It is not stating the possibility or probability of an action, but instead telling the intention of the primary action.
f) The ‘purpose clause’ is most frequently introduced by the conjunction i{na or o{pw". (The single most common use of the subjunctive is after i{na, comprising about one third of all occurrences.) These words are used in clauses that show ‘purpose’, ‘result’, (or other related ideas). But the most frequent use is to show ‘purpose’.
g) For ‘negative purpose’ i{na mh or o{pw" mh is used, translated "in order that …not" or "lest". This indicates that the intention of the action of the main clause is in order that something else would not happen.
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Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Indepenent clause: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name..."
Conjunction (see c above): "...that..." ἵνα
Dependent clause: "...at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"
Here are a few other examples of "X in order that Y" statements where "might" and "should" are the verbs for grammatical reasons, yet the outcome was nevertheless a certainty.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
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As far as the rest of your argument... did not really understand it, but regardless of your interpretation of the the words "every knee shall bow" the bible does in fact say that every knee shall bow.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 12-26-2009 at 09:03 PM..
I just think one of the nails in Preterism is "every eye shall see Him." Yet Preterism claims Jesus came back in 70 A.D. where no eye saw Him.
Also, another nail is the majority of very early church fathers believed that John's Revelation was written around 93 A.D. in which John was still looking foreward to the return of Christ to set up the 1000 year kingdom on the earth.
Why does it matter if Christ is yet to come? Well, if He already came in 70 A.D. we are not under grace but under law; under the sermon on the mount which is the law on steroids. That's just for starters.
Agree!!!! And that's just for starters!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, false. No one saw Him and so no one perished for seeing Him because they couldn't see Him.
Where did Christ say that "when I return, every eye that sees Me shall perish"?
"In like manner" does not mean "only 500 will see Him." In like manner means in a very visible manner every eye shall see Him just like the 500 saw Him leave in a very visible manner.
No, false. No one saw Him and so no one perished for seeing Him because they couldn't see Him.
Where did Christ say that "when I return, every eye that sees Me shall perish"?
Hi Eusebius,
You have turned this into something infantile. I have seen semantics like this before. Judgements and coming in the clouds often meant people will perish. Its implied and easily cross referenced with other sections of the bible.
Rather than ignoring or stalling why don't you tell me how the Tribulation can be the greatest judgement while Thessalonians 2 says Judeans will receive wrath to the utmost.
Here it is again.
Luke 23
27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[g] 31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”
Can you even explain what greater sin there was than rejecting Christ and condemning him to death ? Why is a future generation receiving the utmost wrath? What more will they do?
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"In like manner" does not mean "only 500 will see Him." In like manner means in a very visible manner every eye shall see Him just like the 500 saw Him leave in a very visible manner.
And your response would be :
"where does it say in a very visible manner."?
Which is the problem with semantic evasions.. Anyway if Christ left in a very visible manner, why didn't the whole world see him leave?
Acts 1:11 says that “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” would “in the likeness of his death” in Romans 6:5 mean that we have died in exactly the same way Jesus died?
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” how then does Jesus come from heaven riding a white horse (Rev. 19:11)?
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” how then does the Lord come “with ten thousands of his saints” (Jude 14)?
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” how then does Jesus come “as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west” (Matthew 24:27)?
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” how then does Jesus come “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)?
If “in like manner” means “in exactly the same way,” how then does Jesus come “in flaming fire” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
“In Like Manner”
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Just something to think about Futurists!
Good points.
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