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Maybe you should read my whole post instead of stopping at the first sentence?
PS God is able to convert people whenever He chooses.
This is a result of his failed doctrine. He cannot make the case he has by using the whole passage.
He has done this to me. "All will bow at the judgment"
Yet, the passage in phillipians does not speak in those terms.
Sure, all will bow, but they will not only bow. They will bow AND confess that Jesus is Lord and not only that we understand the manner in which this is done.
What we hear from men is that "oh yeah, sure, but this is when they realize how bad they are and it is too late" or other things that are not in the passage.
What the passage says is that this will be done to the GLORY of God the Father. The case cannot be made that to the Glory of God the father equals " Too late for you sucka"
Forced to believe? hmmm, Like Saul was forced to believe? Only took a few seconds of being in HIs presence for him to realize who Christ was. And though He experienced much persecution himself, stoning, and other hardships, Paul counted it all joy for the honor of serving his king.
Wherever did ANY universalist say people are TORTURED TO BELIEVE. You don't have to be forced to believe something right in front of your face. However, we DO reap what we sow. But that's not going to be being burned, or any other type of physical torture,and certainly won't be everlasting, with no end. As someone else mentioned, I'm thinking shame and regret will play a large part in the process of being refined by SPIRITUAL/metaphorical fire, but that too will be temporary. When all wrongs have been corrected, when all those who received ills in this world are very content and even filled with joy what purpose would shame and regret serve. What purpose would there be in holding anger against anyone, even yourself? .
Enjoy the day with peace and good will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Exactly.
Agreed ...
Rom 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
The problem is that post mortem conversion is not Biblical.
That is your tradition speaking.
You ignore the fact of the very verse you were quoting... "every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, to the glory of the Father"... but I guess you think that is too late to be saved.
Let me ask you this. Do you believe babies that die are saved? When are they converted? When do they mature?
The problem is that post mortem conversion is not Biblical.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Who accomplishes the conversion, man or God? If God accomplishes it, there's no time limitation. God is not limited by this earthly body's existence. He's the one who breathed our spirit into us.
If it's a work of man, maybe there are limits. Salvation is either a finished work of God, accomplished by Christ on the cross, or it has to be finished by man himself. It can't be both ways.
Well, if you are resurrected to face a judgment, aren't you alive? Finn, how would you describe our mental state at judgment? If you can't reason or understand, then what is the purpose of judgment? So one facing judgment must be aware, and if you are aware, then you will just believe in God, Christ and judgment if you are facing it. But there is nothing in the Bible that says judgment must be everlasting, or what purpose does it serve? It has been shown over and over how aion has been translated to mean things other than eternal, so how can one be SO SURE that it is eternal when used in connection with judgment? That mrely makes God out to be vindictive and not someone who would tell US to love our enemies and do GOOD to those who persecute us.
I am drawn to God, to a savior who loves because He can not NOT love. I don't take sin lightly. I am not perfect and the things I do have caused others and myself pain at times. But the more I focus on Him and not what I do, the more I find I can love myself and those around me.
You ignore the fact of the very verse you were quoting... "every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, to the glory of the Father"... but I guess you think that is too late to be saved.
Yes, every knee will bend during the judgement, but it will be too late for those who rejected Christ. You yourself have accepted Him, but why are you trying to talk others into believing there is no need to be accept Him? That's the part I don't understand.
Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
Forced to believe? hmmm, Like Saul was forced to believe? Only took a few seconds of being in HIs presence for him to realize who Christ was. And though He experienced much persecution himself, stoning, and other hardships, Paul counted it all joy for the honor of serving his king.
Wherever did ANY universalist say people are TORTURED TO BELIEVE. You don't have to be forced to believe something right in front of your face. However, we DO reap what we sow. But that's not going to be being burned, or any other type of physical torture,and certainly won't be everlasting, with no end. As someone else mentioned, I'm thinking shame and regret will play a large part in the process of being refined by SPIRITUAL/metaphorical fire, but that too will be temporary. When all wrongs have been corrected, when all those who received ills in this world are very content and even filled with joy what purpose would shame and regret serve. What purpose would there be in holding anger against anyone, even yourself? .
As for the whole world being of a universal reconciliation mindset? I hardly think so. As I understand it, atheists don't believe in any afterlife at all. Islam adherents believe in hell for those outside of their faith. Relatively few Christians believe in universal reconciliation, most convinced of hell for the wicked/non-believers or annihilation. I think some religions teach some sort of union with a supreme force, but if I recall, one loses his/her identity when this takes place. But this really isn't all that different than some Christians espouse, as some think we won't remember any of our friends/loved ones who didn't make it to heaven, and therefore large parts of this life will be forgotten, leaving us wondering who we are, but none of that matters as long as we're in heaven. I don't want to forget anyone who has been in my life, or those who have lived and died before me and those to come after me. If we don't remember the bad things that developed our good traits, why didn't God just instill them in us to begin with?
Enjoy the day with peace and good will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
Well, if you are resurrected to face a judgment, aren't you alive? Finn, how would you describe our mental state at judgment? If you can't reason or understand, then what is the purpose of judgment? So one facing judgment must be aware, and if you are aware, then you will just believe in God, Christ and judgment if you are facing it. But there is nothing in the Bible that says judgment must be everlasting, or what purpose does it serve? It has been shown over and over how aion has been translated to mean things other than eternal, so how can one be SO SURE that it is eternal when used in connection with judgment? That mrely makes God out to be vindictive and not someone who would tell US to love our enemies and do GOOD to those who persecute us.
I am drawn to God, to a savior who loves because He can not NOT love. I don't take sin lightly. I am not perfect and the things I do have caused others and myself pain at times. But the more I focus on Him and not what I do, the more I find I can love myself and those around me.
Very good posts!
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