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Well, the problem is, if you believe that Revelation 20:10 takes precedent over what Jesus taught originally about what God is really like, then sure, you might think he's some sort of Cosmic Nazi!
But if you look objectively at Jesus original teachings, and assuming he was correct, then there can be no Hell.
I've actually written an entire book on this topic--Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There's No Such Place As Hell, (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of Did Jesus Believe in Hell?, one of the most compelling chapters of my book at www.thereisnohell.com), but if I may, let me share one of the many points I make in it to explain why.
If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.
So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!
True, there are a few statements that made their way into the copies of copies of copies of the gospel texts which place “Hell” on Jesus’ lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, most likely due to the Church filling up with Greeks who imported their belief in Hades with them when they converted.
Bear in mind that the historical Protestant doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures applies only to the original autographs, not the copies. But sadly, the interpolations that made their way into those copies have provided a convenient excuse for a lot of people to get around following Jesus’ real message.
But if you look objectively at Jesus original teachings, and assuming he was correct, then there can be no Hell.
Apart from the fact that this is not true (see the original post), you move on to say:
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If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.
A bit later you say:
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Bear in mind that the historical Protestant doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures applies only to the original autographs, not the copies. But sadly, the interpolations that made their way into those copies have provided a convenient excuse for a lot of people to get around following Jesus’ real message.
Well, how do you know that the text from Luke, to which you alluded above, is not just another of those interpolations?
Do you believe that the 66 books of the Protestant Bible are the sole, infallible, and final authority for Christian faith and practice? If not, there would be little point in continuing.
The reason why I don't accept this is because to do so I would have to ignore the following explanation of that woe (good for him if he had not been born). This clearly indicates that the "woe" was something far, far worse than merely experiencing it for himself temporally and then committing suicide. The language is too strong for that.
What is worse than getting to the point were you wish you had never been born? Burning on fire for ever? That's simply obnoxious ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-28-2010 at 02:32 PM..
Be that as it may, aiwnios has been translated as both "age" (whether past, present, or future) and as "eternal." This is a fact and has been brought out on these forums.
Yes, it has, but originally it could only mean one of the two.
Originally Posted by Jremy Be that as it may, aiwnios has been translated as both "age" (whether past, present, or future) and as "eternal." This is a fact and has been brought out on these forums.
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Yes, it has, but originally it could only mean one of the two.
No, that is incorrect. In some contexts it has one meaning, and in other contexts it has the other. Words can, and often do, have multiple meanings.
Edit: To clarify, if you mean that the word once had only one meaning but then gradually developed over time to have multiple meanings, then I agree with you.
No, that is incorrect. In some contexts it has one meaning, and in other contexts it has the other. Words can, and often do, have multiple meanings.
Yeah ... Like happy really means sad in certain contexts, and white really means black, and love means hate and girl means boy and long means short and up means down ... In certain contexts ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-28-2010 at 03:52 PM..
Yeah ... Like happy really means sad in certain contexts, and white really means black, and love means hate and girl means boy and long means short and up means down ... In certain contexts ...
Edit: To clarify, if you mean that the word once had only one meaning but then gradually developed over time to have multiple meanings, then I agree with you.
For some reason I doubt that you actually agree with me.
I say that the word never meant eternal until a couple of centuries after it was written when that meaning was added to it. Then the word gradually came to mean eternal as well.
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Himif that man were not born!"
to me it makes good sense, the woe is applied to Jude; but then Jesus has a different thought, good were it for Himself, if that (Greek ekeinos) man (Judas) were not born - check it in an interlinear translation, if Judas is meant who was better never been born, who is that man?
as Ironmaw1776 pointed out
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I have made the same argument concerning Mat 26:24 ... I believe that it still applies. We see Jesus shortly thereafter praying in Gethsemane For the father to take away the cup of his suffering from his lips and lamenting his fate, which clearly shows that Christ did not want to have to suffer and die personally, but he prayed at last the fathers will be done and not his own. This shows that Jesus was very conscious of what was to come and when speaking of Judas' betrayal it could very well be that he was referring to the fact that he personally did not want to have to suffer and die and it would have been better for him personally if Judas had not been born.
you wrote further:
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Since Judas Iscariot’s fate cannot be annihilation or remedial punishment, it cannot be anything other than eternal punishment.
if for argument's sake, your understanding of that verse were right, why can't Judas' fate be annihilation? - annihilation is eternal punishment.
Judas maybe had no good life before he met Christ, he had propaply no wife, no children, he did not get old, he died a shamefull death, if he would condemned at judgement day to let's say 50 years of torture and afterwards be annihilated, I would definitly say, it were better for him to have never been born, to say only if Judas will be tormented forevermore without end, it could have been good for him to have never been born is absurd and illogical.
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