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yeshuasavedme, your quoting the book of Enoch lends no credibility to your case. That book is not inspired. It was not written by the Enoch in Genesis.
Exactly....which is why I refuse to respond to such silliness. There is all kinds of writings out there that say many crazy things....should we all start using those to prove our points?
Who said He was silent? A day is as a thousand years to God.........He was busy retrieving the key so you don't have to, go there that is................................Final Answer!!
yeshuasavedme, your quoting the book of Enoch lends no credibility to your case. That book is not inspired. It was not written by the Enoch in Genesis.
You err, in ignorance of true Church history, and so you are the one without any credibility whatsoever, as you argue from ignorance.
Enoch is inspired Scripture and was always inspired Scripture, and the early Church believed it was and used it as Scripture, and there are writings by many of the men who were part of the early NT Church who call Enoch Scripture.
So how is it that you do not know about it? -by accepting Rome's opinion of it, which Rome made almost four hundred years after the NT Church was founded. So you are following Rome, not the Holy Spirit, who never changes His mind.
Why did Rome do this? -By following the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century, on that book, and those Christ rejecting Jews were so against Jesus Christ that they banned Enoch in the first century, because Enoch is all about Jesus Christ, as the Son of Man in heaven who was with God and who was God, hidden, until His revelation, and whose name was secret until its revealing. -That name, that formerly secret name, is "Israel" [Isaiah 49], and He gave it to Jacob [Genesis 32], as a sign/oracle of the New Birth of Spirit that was promised to AbraHAm and his seed, through Isaac.
That new birth of Spirit is into the One Living Spirit of Christ who is now come in flesh, as Enoch told of Him.
So why are you following Rome? the born again in Christ Jews of Ethiopia did not follow Rome and they kept Enoch as sacred Scripture from the beginning of their conversion to Christ, and they still have it in their "list/canon" of "collected books/Bible" -sacred Scripture- even today, and that is where the copies of it were got in the late 1700's and translated to English in the early 1800's.
It was sacred Scripture also to the Jewish community called the Essene's, and they left many copies of it in the manuscripts discovered in the Qumran caves.
It was sacred Scripture to Jesus, and he called it Scripture when He rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing its doctrine on the angels in heaven not marrying, and the doctrine in it that the resurrected righteous will be equal/like, the angels in heaven and will not marry. It was sacred Scripture to Jesus on His own doctrines which He preached, as were laid out in 1 Enoch about Him. He is the Son of Man in heaven who was with God, and was God, as John also stated, who was seen in secret, hidden, by Enoch, alone.
It was sacred Scripture to Jude, the womb brother of Jesus, and to James, the womb brother to Jesus, who also quoted from it.
It was sacred Scripture to Paul, who refers to the doctrines laid in Enoch throughout his letters.
The Roman Church denied Enoch almost four hundred years after the NT Church was established, and you want to follow Rome on this -why?
Do you follow Rome on all the other books that they do accept [I do]. If not, why do you pick and choose, as if Rome was in error about those other books included in the Septuagint, which you do not believe are "inspired", but was correct about Enoch?
Only in 1 Enoch are the foundational doctrines for the Person and Work of Christ come in flesh laid, and only in the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name are those foundational doctrines taught as "oracles" to rehearse until the completion of each of them, and only in the Christ come in flesh is the fulfillment of all that Enoch saw and of all that Moses gave the namesake people to rehearse about Him.
So you are wrong on all counts about the book of Enoch and its importance on the foundational doctrines, for not only was "The Word" who is come in flesh and is "Christ" seen in Enoch as one Person in the Triune YHWH, but Enoch also revealed all the doctrine of Sheol/hollows below earth and all the doctrine of the Lake of Fire. Enoch also revealed the doctrine of the the Book of Life, which is laid foundationally only in Enoch -and only in Enoch is that Book of Life explained.
All the doctrines of Moses' Law for Israel, and all the doctrines of the Church [which is of Israel] are foundational Enochian doctrines, and the Law was only given to the namesake people of the New Man name, to rehearse the oracles of His Person and work, until they were completed.
And the Dead Sea Scrolls translated to English is another place you can go learn what the ancient Jews considered sacred Writings.
Barnabas, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, and Irenaeus called Enoch Scripture; and Tertullien said Enoch was rejected by the Christ rejecting Jews because it contained prophecies of Christ.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 01-30-2010 at 11:49 AM..
No Finn, I believe my heavenly Father is in heaven.
Yes, I can see you really believe that. Most Christians who read the bible know he is omnipresent. He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time.
Quote:
I gave you tons of verses showing you that the birds fly in the heavens and even David in the Psalms said the birds fly in the heavens. David said if he ascended to the heavenS (plural) not heaven, Finn, HEAVENS get it? Heavens.
Yes, and I gave you the Hebrew word and its meaning.
Quote:
You don't know Sheol, the tomb, in David's time had a wicked side for torment and a good side for the righteous. What did those Jews do? Did they hew out a tomb and put a divider down the middle and say This side is if uncle Schlem is righteous but if he is wicked we'll put him on this side of the tomb! ? Sheol was just the tomb.
Yes, I do not know because the Bible spells is out.
According to your beliefs it must have been one heck of a grave because Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in the same grave while there was a great void in the middle which none of they could cross.
What does this mean in Luke 16:22? The angels carried Lazarus to Sheol next Abraham. Did the angels physically bury him in Abraham's grave. And in the next verse the rich man sees Abraham and Lazarus in the distance and they have a conversation? Would that make any sense if Sheol is just a physical grave? And why was the rich man being tormented by fire if he was in a mass grave with Abraham? And why didn't Abraham get burned? If they were physically dead in a grave, how could they be having a conversation?
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
Yes, I can see you really believe that. Most Christians who read the bible know he is omnipresent. He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time.
Yes, and I gave you the Hebrew word and its meaning.
Yes, I do not know because the Bible spells is out.
According to your beliefs it must have been one heck of a grave because Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in the same grave while there was a great void in the middle which none of they could cross.
What does this mean in Luke 16:22? The angels carried Lazarus to Sheol next Abraham. Did the angels physically bury him in Abraham's grave. And in the next verse the rich man sees Abraham and Lazarus in the distance and they have a conversation? Would that make any sense if Sheol is just a physical grave? And why was the rich man being tormented by fire if he was in a mass grave with Abraham? And why didn't Abraham get burned? If they were physically dead in a grave, how could they be having a conversation?
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
It's a freakin parable. The parable just before it was about the prodigal son who died and went to the pig farm to feed pigs. The Israelites knew Christ wasn't being literal, that it was just a parable.
Likewise, people don't literally have their whole bodies carried to Abraham's bosom just because they received evil things in this life. That is the reason Abraham gave as to why Lazarus went to Abraham. It doesn't say he had faith in Christ. Who needs Christ? Just receive evil in this life and you are a shoe in. But if you receive good things in this life like the rich man then you will need Christ. Go figure.
The rich man was entombed (Luke 16:22). This further proves Sheol/Hades is the tomb. The parable does not say Lazarus was entombed nor does it say he was in sheol/hades.
Rivers and flames don't normally flow and exist in people's tombs . . . do they? Please don't say they do or you might be sent to the funny farm.
Now, then, Finn, God never told Adam or Eve, Cain or anyone in the Old Testament that if they sinned they'd go to hell. No, Finn, not even once. You can't take a parable written many thousands of years after Adam and Eve and Noah etc. and say, "See here! God told Adam and Eve about Hell because thousands of years after they died Christ talked about it." Do you see the falacy behind your thinking?
Who said He was silent? A day is as a thousand years to God.........He was busy retrieving the key so you don't have to, go there that is................................Final Answer!!
It doesn't say a day is a thousand years but that "One day with the Lord is like a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:8).
Your answer dear one does not prove God told the Old Testament people that if they sinned they'd go to Hell. He didn't. Never once. Why all the secrecy if it is true that they'd go to hell if they sinned?
Exactly....which is why I refuse to respond to such silliness. There is all kinds of writings out there that say many crazy things....should we all start using those to prove our points?
I wonder when yahwehsavedme is going to start quoting Joseph Smith's works? LOL! They are on the same level as the book of Enoch.
Yeshuasavedme, the book of Enoch is totally bogus, uninspired, not written by the actual Enoch of the Old Testament and should not be in the canon.
Since you are not the Holy Spirit, I do not agree with you, nor did Jesus, Paul, James, Jude, John, Peter, Barnabas, Tertullien, Clement of Alexendria, Iraeneaus, the Essenes of the Qumran caves, the Jews of Ethiopia who converted to Christ and kept it in their canon, early in the Church age -and many others.
Enoch is in my canon/list of sacred writings, as it was in the early Church members' documented lists of collected books called sacred writings, and in the lists of sacred writings of the righteous Jews before them; and in Abraham's list of sacred writings [Abram studied with Noah and Shem for about 39 years, or so, as the Book of Jasher tells us], and Abram read from the Book of Enoch to the Egyptians who served Pharaoh "Osiris", only forty years after the fall of the tower of Babel.
Translation of 1Q Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen)
Abram wrote: quote]But after those five years, three men who were princes of Egypt [came … …] of Pharaoh Zoa[n] about my affairs and about my wife, and they presented [me numerous gifts and aske]d m[e to teach them] values, wisdom, and truth. So I read in their presence the [book of] the words of [En]och […[/quote]
Jesus also calls Enoch's writings "the Wisdom of God", when quoting from it. Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the Wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 01-30-2010 at 08:08 PM..
I wonder when yahwehsavedme is going to start quoting Joseph Smith's works? LOL! They are on the same level as the book of Enoch.
You are letting your total biblical ignorance out. You should be ashamed that you have not studied to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed.
Enoch was called Scripture by Jesus Christ. Sorry you do not agree with Him or with all those who listed Enoch as Scripture and quoted from it in the early Church, and with the Essenes, the righteous Jews who left the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts and believed Enoch to be Scripture of sacred order.
I am sorry you are following Rome on this matter, who decided to follow the Christ rejecting Jews on it almost four hundred years after the Church was founded! -four hundred years!!! -But why are you not following Rome on the rest of their approved canon? -I do, as the Jews did, and as the early Protestants did.
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