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Hi Jremy....You do not have to believe it. I do because I have witnessed it. It truly is a beautiful thing to read Jesus' word, try your very best to live by those words, have your light shine.
I shall continue to demonstrate this both by my actions and verbally. I have proof in my life that they synchronize well together. As I have stated before it is impossible to sit down with everyone that you come into contact with on any given day for a coffee. We should strive to preach the Word but we should also strive to live by that word. Too many do not practice what they preach. I myself have bad days as I am not perfect and I am sure on those days I would not attract an an unbeliever.
Thank you for the conversation. I do appreciate what you are getting at and perhaps you are correct. On the other hand, there are many words in the bible that tell us to lead by example and I wonder why?
I think you are being used by the LORD in reaching out to others with good works and good gospel!
The bottom line in all of this is what the Bible teaches. You said that you have read the Bible (or at least parts of it--I'm not sure), so I invite you to support your views using specific Biblical texts. If you cannot do this, then I would have to conclude that you have not derived your views from God's Word but from your own mind, which would then mean that they carry no authority. The same goes for any of my thoughts or any others: If they do not accurately reflect what God says, like an ambassador faithfully proclaiming his master's message, then there is no authority behind them.
First off, yes, believe it or not, I have read the bible. I also happen to have a fairly decent mind; something I don't particularly consider a bad thing. I therefore try and use it often. --I suspect you have a good mind too. I suspect you in fact are attempting to use it in the points you make and defend within this thread. As such, it would never occur to me to put down your use of your mind.
Secondly, it is not merely a matter of reading God's Word, as you say. It requires the understanding and application of it. Which, within any Christian's life I would think would imply an understanding and application with both the mind, as well as the heart.
Third: Refer to last few sentences in this post...
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
You do not understand efficacious grace.
I'm not a Calvanist.
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
..and why can't you respond with scriptural support you are responding to his message while you are in the office it is just as easy to type it into google and find it in seconds...so your excuse does not hold water...
I have ten minutes in between patients. I don't always have time. You may feel my "excuse" doesn't "hold water" but your words are condescendingly hurtful. --Somewhat ironic on a thread addressing 'words' and 'actions.'
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
Where in scripture did people respond because of the Actions of christ?...I wait for much scriptural reference.
Miracles were actions.
What Jesus did in the Temple, and why, was an action.
Jesus's death was an action.
Jesus's resurrection was an action.
--Oh, and then there's my 'personal favorite'. The fact that Jesus interacted with those who (somewhat like myself, Richard?) were considered "outcasts." The sick, the poor, the prostitutes, tax collectors, and the one I love the most: the Samaritan woman.
Lastly, why condemn people's efforts (especially a nonbeliever's!?) when it's done in good faith? It doesn't make sense to me, as it would truly seem to call the notion of a loving God who accepted others (so much that he actually died for them) into question.
Acceptance being an "act" of some sort, as well...
First off, yes, believe it or not, I have read the bible. I also happen to have a fairly decent mind; something I don't particularly consider a bad thing. I therefore try and use it often. --I suspect you have a good mind too. I suspect you in fact are attempting to use it in the points you make and defend within this thread. As such, it would never occur to me to put down your use of your mind.
June,you've misunderstood my words. I never intended to put down your mind, but if I came across that way, I am sorry. My point was simply this: Our own thoughts--whether they originate in my mind, yours, or anyone else's--do not carry authority for Christians regarding Christian faith and practice. Only the Bible does. Therefore, if someone makes a statement as to what is good or bad, right or wrong for Christian faith and practice, but they cannot substantiate that statement using the Bible, it is questionable whether that statement has any authority.
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Secondly, it is not merely a matter of reading God's Word, as you say. It requires the understanding and application of it. Which, within any Christian's life I would think would imply an understanding and application with both the mind, as well as the heart.
I agree, but since I've never denied the value and necessity of living out our faith, this point of yours does not apply--at least not to me.
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Third: Refer to last few sentences in this post...
Okay, let's look at them....
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Miracles were actions. What Jesus did in the Temple, and why, was an action.
Jesus's death was an action.
Jesus's resurrection was an action.
--Oh, and the there's my 'personal favorite'. The fact that Jesus interacted with those who (somewhat like myself, Richard?) were considered "outcasts." The sick, the poor, the prostitutes, tax collectors, and the one I love the most: the Samaritan woman.
June, as I've mentioned before, there is no disagreement with the use of actions in combination with words. In fact, I even agree that our good actions could draw people to us. What I question, though--and this is the point of this whole thread--is whether those good actions of believers can actually draw an unbeliever to Christ. And just to clarify, when I say, "draw an unbeliever to Christ," I am referring to their actually placing their faith in him and repenting of their sins--in short, conversion. I see no biblical support, however, that our actions can do that. If you do, though, please provide it.
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Lastly, why condemn people's efforts (especially a nonbeliever's!?)
I don't think anyone "condemned" anything. Don't you think that's a pretty severe word to use? I'd say it's more accurate to say that what I've been trying to do is determine biblically whether our actions actually convert others--not just lead to their conversion, but actually convert them. In short, it's a disagreement. That does not necessarily indicate "condemnation."
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when it's done in good faith? It doesn't make sense to me, as it would truly seem to call the notion of a loving God who accepted others (so much that he actually died for them) into question.
Whether something is done "in good faith," as you put it, is only one piece of the puzzle, so to speak. People can be sincerely wrong. A person could, "in good faith," do evangelism--or think he is doing evangelism--in a manner that misleads others.
Nice try... but you're way off base. For the last half hour, I have been receiving in my soul the very essence of my Father, His Divine Love... believe what you wish, but I know the Truth of what I speak. God bless.
Like i said, 2Tim 2:11...I know where and who you receive from...Been there done that...
Jremy I have to think that so far I would draw the atheist in towards believing in God more than what you think and that is practicing what I preach. When you practice what you preach your light shines brightly and people are drawn by that light.
No one comes to the Father except through Christ and no one comes to the Son except the Father draws Him...You are trying to take credit for what scripture clearly states is a work of God alone...
I agree that there are times when we can't always witness. I also agree that our good actions could draw people to us. What I question, though--and this is the point of this whole thread--is whether those good actions of believers can actually make an unbeliever more willing to place their faith in Christ. I see no biblical support that they can.
That sounds wonderful, but it is not authoritative and is not the basis for what we should or should not believe. How do you know she is really a follower of Christ? Is it merely because she says she is? Is it because of her life?
Yea, take a look at what the Followers endured with the Romans and the Colloseum and the Lions...They also walked the talk but did it save those persecuting them?...
No, that is not entirely correct. People do not repent and believe just by "seeing Jesus." If this were the case, then Jesus and the apostles would have not made teaching the truth their chief priority. People believe and repent when operated upon by the Holy Spirit to do so, in tandem with hearing the gospel. That is what the Bible teaches. I agree that our lives and works can adorn that gospel message and glorify God, but the passage in Matthew that was quoted does not teach--in any way--that our lives bring people to saving faith in Christ. All it says is that our good lives glorify God.
I do read the Scriptures, and will continue to do so. Now that you've admonished me, let me admonish you: Stop reading into verses your own thoughts. When we do that, we refuse to hear what God's voice is saying in that passage and instead care only to hear our own.
Amen to that...I came out of a Pentacoatal Church which did that very same thing...Thank God i came under a Calvinistic Preacher who taught me Deductive Reasoning and Logic...
Yea, take a look at what the Followers endured with the Romans and the Colloseum and the Lions...They also walked the talk but did it save those persecuting them?...
I doubt it. I'm glad you brought up persecution. I find it interesting that Paul wrote about the reaction of the world to a Christian's godly life in this manner:
"Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (2 Tim. 3:10-12)
Notice he doesn't say that they "might" be persecuted, but that they "will be persecuted." If there is any place in the Bible that says clearly how the world reacts to godly living, it is here--but it is far from positive.
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