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Notice Jesus CHOSE the 12 and then claims one of them is a devil. How can it be that one who is saved (chosen by Christ) can then lose that salvation?
Maybe Judas was never saved. He may have thought so, but it is possible that salvation was not granted to him, because he was chosen for another task. God chooses people who will be called and saved and not everyone is meant to be saved. I think Judas was not meant to be saved because his mission on earth was to betray Jesus. In John 15:5 and such verses Jesus talks about trimming off fruitless branches and throwing them in the fire. One might think that when Jesus talked about the branches, he was referring to saved people because he was talking to his disciples, who are assumed saved, it is not so, because Judas may not have been saved. He was the fruitless branch which was cut off and thrown into the fire. And people who profess Christianity while never accepting Jesus as their saviour are also such branches. Any unsaved person is such branch, and they will be trimmed off the vine (Jesus) and thrown into the fire.
My question is a Yes or No question Mike. Here it is again:
Can Dead Faith save you? - (Yes or No)
It is a simple test. If someone is wrong they usually will refuse to answer it with a Yes or No.
I suppose you think that's supposed to force me to answer in the way you want me to.
I told you that the issue of 'dead faith' has nothing to do with 'eternal' salvation, but is related to 'temporal salvation' or your spiritual life after salvation. And therefore it is not a yes or no question because you think it has something to do with eternal salvation.
If you don't like the answer, what is that to me?
Quote:
Now as to the second question, you said nothing can cause someone to lose their salvation. So you believe Judas is still saved, correct? After all Jesus said the following:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Notice Jesus CHOSE the 12 and then claims one of them is a devil. How can it be that one who is saved (chosen by Christ) can then lose that salvation?
Judas was never saved to begin with.
And as for John 6:70, it has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus was speaking to the twelve disciples that He had chosen to be His disciples and who would later become the Apostles. Compare it with John 15:16. 'You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit...' (refering to what they would be doing as His Apostles.)
Now compare with Luke 6:13, Matt. 10:2-4, Mark 3:13-19, John 6:70, and John 13:18.
Jesus was speaking in the context of having chosen the 12 to be his disciples.
Now. Before you make any more ignorant statements, educate yourself about the doctrine of eternal security. And I am going to give you the means to do so right here.
If you have any genuine interest in truth, then avail yourself of the information provided in the link. If you're not interested than don't. But don't waste your time directing your ignorant arguments toward me. You have no idea, no concept of how heretical your beliefs are. And I am not wasting any more of my time on you. I have better things to do.
Maybe Judas was never saved. He may have thought so, but it is possible that salvation was not granted to him, because he was chosen for another task. God chooses people who will be called and saved and not everyone is meant to be saved. I think Judas was not meant to be saved because his mission on earth was to betray Jesus. In John 15:5 and such verses Jesus talks about trimming off fruitless branches and throwing them in the fire. One might think that when Jesus talked about the branches, he was referring to saved people because he was talking to his disciples, who are assumed saved, it is not so, because Judas may not have been saved. He was the fruitless branch which was cut off and thrown into the fire. And people who profess Christianity while never accepting Jesus as their saviour are also such branches. Any unsaved person is such branch, and they will be trimmed off the vine (Jesus) and thrown into the fire.
Are you saying that Judas was predestined to perform the mission that he did? - what about free will? What about choice?
I suppose you think that's supposed to force me to answer in the way you want me to.
No, it is to show the others that you can't simply answer the question with a Yes or No because you really are not confident in your answer.
Quote:
I told you that the issue of 'dead faith' has nothing to do with 'eternal' salvation, but is related to 'temporal salvation' or your spiritual life after salvation. And therefore it is not a yes or no question because you think it has something to do with eternal salvation.
If you don't like the answer, what is that to me?
Judas was never saved to begin with.
And as for John 6:70, it has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus was speaking to the twelve disciples that He had chosen to be His disciples and who would later become the Apostles. Compare it with John 15:16. 'You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit...' (refering to what they would be doing as His Apostles.)
Now compare with Luke 6:13, Matt. 10:2-4, Mark 3:13-19, John 6:70, and John 13:18.
Jesus was speaking in the context of having chosen the 12 to be his disciples.
Now. Before you make any more ignorant statements, educate yourself about the doctrine of eternal security. And I am going to give you the means to do so right here.
If you have any genuine interest in truth, then avail yourself of the information provided in the link. If you're not interested than don't. But don't waste your time directing your ignorant arguments toward me. You have no idea, no concept of how heretical your beliefs are. And I am not wasting any more of my time on you. I have better things to do.
I don't educate myself in calvinism which I believe is blasphemous but in the Word of God. I don't seek out those that expouse that cross gazing and co-savior theology can save you. The Word of God trumps all those.
Are you saying that Judas was predestined to perform the mission that he did? - what about free will? What about choice?
Yes, I believe he was chosen for that task. Sovereign God chooses to call the people to salvation and many don't answer the call. Some are never called in the first place, and some people like Judas have a different purpose in their lives.
"many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
See, many are called and few are chosen. Many are called does not mean everyone are called. Once you are called you have free will to accept or refuse.
‘Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?
And afterwads instead of turning to God he chose his own way of repentence by taking his own life, and even that seems to have been his destiny from the start :
Acts 1:20 20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.'
and
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-31-2010 at 01:04 PM..
Yes, I believe he was chosen for that task. Sovereign God chooses to call the people to salvation and many don't answer the call. Some are never called in the first place, and some people like Judas have a different purpose in their lives.
"many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
See, many are called and few are chosen. Many are called does not mean everyone are called. Once you are called you have free will to accept or refuse.
‘Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?
And afterwads instead of turning to God he chose his own way of repentence by taking his own life, and even that seems to have been his destiny from the start :
Acts 1:20 20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.'
and
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
Many were called in Israel meant that all of them were called but only a few were CHOSEN - and those chosen were the Levites. It didn't mean the rest of the tribes were any less valued by God. Why should we think that if someone is not Chosen now that they are less valued by God?
Many were called in Israel meant that all of them were called but only a few were CHOSEN - and those chosen were the Levites. It didn't mean the rest of the tribes were any less valued by God. Why should we think that if someone is not Chosen now that they are less valued by God?
Nope, not ALL are invited, but MANY are, and he is not talking about Levites, he is talking about Kingdom Of God.
Not everyone is meant to be saved.
2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
Nope, not ALL are invited, but MANY are, and he is not talking about Levites, he is talking about Kingdom Of God.
Not everyone is meant to be saved.
2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
So you then believe that God brought some into existence for the very purpose of condemning them to torment forevermore upon their death? If not, then how do you reconcile that God knows the END from the very beginning and go unto say that not everyone is meant to be saved?
So you then believe that God brought some into existence for the very purpose of condemning them to torment forevermore upon their death? If not, then how do you reconcile that God knows the END from the very beginning and go unto say that not everyone is meant to be saved?
Yes, there are different kinds of people:
1. Those who will be invited. They will have the choice to accept or reject. Most people in US have this choice.
2. Those who will never be invited. Think about the Indians in the Jungles of Brazil, who never heard of God.
I should add that there are those who hear the invitation, but are predestined to reject it, and their hearts are closed to the message. Judas was such person, and Jesus said of him that considering where he was destined to go, it would have been better if he had never been born.
Sovereign God
Romans 9:14-15 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Sure ignore the scriptures I posted which say otherwise, right? It is right there. It is said by Paul that Eternal Life and Immortality are given based on works - His Works!!! If you don't want to believe that now - you will later.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Believing is DOING what He said to do.
Believing results in doing what He said to do. And the results--works--are inevitable for the one who has true faith. That's what James meant when he wrote (2:14-18):
"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
James speaks of faith and works as distinct things, not one and the same. The one leads to the other. If it does not, then it is "by itself." Later, in v. 22, he seems to view faith and works distinctly when he talks about Abraham: "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected."
How could his faith work "with his works" if they were one and the same?
It's interesting, too, that Paul makes a sharp distinction between faith and works:
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Rom. 3:28)
"...nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Gal. 2:16)
(all verses quoted from NASB)
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