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Alpha I apologized to robin already for that. So I am sorry. But I even stated in my thread that it does not apply to all fundie baptists , just the movements
People let me apologize for my exchange with kirk. The first thing he did when presenting his argument against christian rock was put up a picture of britney spears. I should have known then that there was no way one could talk sense to this guy.
I took him off ignore just to see that last post and of course , it was even more shocking. This guy is on his own planet , in his own world , and I allowed him to suck me into it. I apologize to you all , both for my actions and kirk's blasphemies.
Anyway he is back on ignore. The truth of the lord is not in him and he shows us that more and more with every post. Anyway let me again apologize to you all. I'm truly sorry
I fear this discussion suffers from an imperfect understanding of the nature of our soul and animal nature and the roles of each, especially as it relates to Baptists' and others' concerns about music. Our soul begins as a spiritual embryo in the womb of our brain. Energy transformation is the mechanism underlying its growth and maturation process. Pure vibrational energy is the very substance of our soul. Our consciousness is our soul in the process of becoming. Our thoughts are the production process for the development to maturity (Death) and rebirth of our soul as Spirit into its rightful plane of existence. But, pure thought, uncolored with human emotions, is NOT the type of consciousness we are supposed to produce.
Our animal nature is the source of all the energy and drive for our thoughts and behaviors. Our animal nature is fully functional and dominant at birth and for most of our early years as the "seed" of our embryo soul matures and gains control over directing the way we spend the energy and respond to the drives. As we control and redirect the energy from our animal nature . . . we transform it into thoughts and feelings (the essence of our soul) . . . and behaviors (the essence of our physical existence). Our behaviors both expend energy and acquire new sources of energy for our body and brain to transform into cells, thoughts, feelings, behavior and waste. etc. The mixture and character of the ways WE spend and transform those energies determines the COMPOSITION of our soul and should be the focus of our spiritual concern.
Actually, musical composition provides the best analogy for our soul's composition. Our mind is merely the conscious manifestation of the interactions between our soul and our animal nature. The relative strengths of these two "ingredients" at any point in time determines the nature of our consciousness. You can view our consciousness as a mixture of awareness and animal reaction, just as a piano concerto is a mixture of melody and rhythm. The music is the product of the left and right hands, but it is neither all melody nor all rhythm, and it does not exist except as the combination of the rhythm and melody hands. Similarly, our consciousness is the "music" played by our soul and our animal nature through the stereophonic system of our brain. This is the very essence of cosmic becoming, as Capek suggests,
Let us consider a piece of music . . . It is hardly necessary to underscore its successive character. As long as its movement is going on, it remains incomplete and in its successive unfolding we grasp in the most vivid and concrete way the incompleteness of every becoming. At each particular moment a new tone is added to the previous ones. . . The quality of a new tone, in spite of its irreducible individuality, is tinged by the whole antecedent musical context which, in turn, is retroactively changed by the emergence of a new musical quality.. . . Every musical structure is by its own nature unfolding and incomplete; so is cosmic becoming, the time-space of modern physics.
It should be obvious how music and nature are "two different expressions of the same thing," once a knowledge of wave theory is employed. After all, music is merely waves of sound at varying frequencies, and matter is merely waves of energy at varying frequencies. The phenomenon of music and its diversity of character and appeal is readily understood once the basic composition of the human psyche is fully understood. The amount and kind of rhythm and melody that is present determines the character of music. Music appeals to both facets of the human psychic makeup. This becomes clearer when you consider that rhythm and melody occur at separate ends of the sound spectrum. The rhythm or beat appeals to our animal nature. Our animal nature is the physical partner, therefore it is in the low frequency range of solid matter. The purest form of rhythm, the low frequency sound of savage drum beats, represents a predominance of animal appeal.
Our soul is the spiritual partner in the high frequency range of pure energy. Since our soul represents an accelerated state of energy or wave frequency compared to our animal nature, it follows that higher frequency sounds would be more compatible with our soul than with our animal nature. Furthermore, consciousness can more readily detect and appreciate the altered sequencing of harmonious sounds which is melody and can understand lyrics. The soft, euphonic, high frequency strains of a Stradivarius violin in the hands of a classical master, would represent a predominance of soul appeal.
The mixture of soul and animal that comprises our consciousness at any one time determines our preference in music at that time. The admixture determines the "resultant frequency" of our consciousness and subsequently determines its compatibility with various mixtures of melody and rhythm in music. That is why for most of us our taste in music is a fluid thing, highly dependent upon our mood or the circumstances we are in. (This change is more exaggerated and obvious when one is drinking alcohol or otherwise altering the state of our consciousness.) This is further support for the notion that our consciousness is like the "music" played by our soul and animal nature. When our physical partner is dominant, we prefer more rhythmic music. When our soul is dominant, we want more refined music. Most of us achieve a compromise that equates to our "mood."
The almost universal preference for lyric and melody indicates the general superiority of the soul, while the extreme diversity of the melodic character and its admixture with rhythm indicates the tenuous nature of that superiority. Christian music can have tremendous soul-stirring power when it successfully merges strong rhythmic appeal with melodic and lyrical expressions of the strongest yearnings of our soul. It is a clear opportunity to control our animal nature and merge its emotions and promptings with our soul under control. This blending and directing of our animal nature is what usually produces some of the best accomplishments of humankind. Ignoring or dismissing our human nature instead of conquering it and controlling it is a huge mistake, IMO. Our purpose is to achieve spiritual dominance over our animal nature . . . but NOT to eliminate it. We are to produce a "blend" with our spirit dominant and in control. This gives our spirit its distinct and unique character . . . our "Soul Symphony."
Before I get into my post , I want to say that this question is directed at the fundie baptist movement as a whole , not every individual fundie baptist. I so know some good men within the fundie baptist movement. Now I will explain why I asked the question.
When I first started getting deeper into christianity , I was absolutely shocked by the amount of infighting that goes on in the christian world. Even the loudest worldly cliques don't slander each other the way christian groups slander each other.
And usually , not always , but usually when there is a public attack on christians from other christians , its the fundie baptists behind it. I hate to stereotype , but it seems that in almost all these situations , its the fundie baptists saying awful things about other christians. And this is usually done over really stupid issues such as a demand that women don't wear pants , men don't wear shorts , and no one listens to christian rock.
When the unsaved public sees this , they are discouraged from comming to christianity because they feel we act worse than they do. Many will never be saved because of the public actions and heresies of the fundie baptist movement. And this is why I think they are the most dangerous movement in america for christians. But I welcome any thoughts.
Gideon said, I tend to agree. Only because I was part of a Fundamental "Bible Believing" Baptist cult. While they claim the bible as their only rule or measurement for living and faith. they are way off target in interpreting its precepts. Fundamental Baptist and just that, Fund a mentalist. People whom fund them are literally Funding Mentalist experts whom know how to pry on the minds of their congregations. They are always presumptuous, their doctrines are corrupted, and they use scare tactics to mezmerize the minds of their members; by frightening them into submission. They usually tell their congregations if you do not do this; God will do that, etc. They are most certainly, the most wicked group of so called saints that I have ever seen. They try to use other people's tragedies as a means of promoting themselves. They are easy to spot and stick out like sour thumbs.
It IS true that many will leave or never come to christ cuz of the fundie baptist movement.
Well, I wasn't going to comment, but I think I'll say just one thing. I don't know that it's just the fundamentalist Baptists who are driving people away, but fundamentalist Christianity in general. They're so caught up in trying to judge who's a "real" Christian and who's just a "wannabe" or a "fake" that they've forgotten all about Christ's actual message. I just wish they'd knock it off and let God be the judge.
Well, I wasn't going to comment, but I think I'll say just one thing. I don't know that it's just the fundamentalist Baptists who are driving people away, but fundamentalist Christianity in general. They're so caught up in trying to judge who's a "real" Christian and who's just a "wannabe" or a "fake" that they've forgotten all about Christ's actual message. I just wish they'd knock it off and let God be the judge.
so true... the fundies are not the only christians that are guilty of squabbling over what they claim is 'biblical'. I believe the bible as the inerrant word if God. sure there may be some grammatical errors from trying to translate the original languages to our modern languages. thoughts get lost in the translation. how often does what the intent of one person's writings get twisted by what another person understands? I have been dragged before the elders a couple of times because they misunderstood what I said from the pulpit. it was like the telephone game...they heard something totally different than what I said. possibly we have our own thoughts and when we hear something that challenges them, we take offence, then we stop at that point and miss everything that is said or written.
the fundies have their understanding of the scripture and I may not (do not) agree with them, yet I should respect them for what they believe. I would wish the same in return, but know that there will be those who would strongly object to what I believe. my part is to pray for them and try to be civil. possibly in time the Lord will work in them and soften their hearts to a place where we can just be christians. we are commanded to love our brothers and sisters with a special love that will cause others to see and desire for themselves. where is the brother or sister who will deny themself and become the servant??
true I must walk in the light that the Lord has revealed to me by His Holy Spirit (which never goes contrary to the written word). I cannot demand another to walk in that light because they may not be ready for it. my responsiblity is to minister God's sacrifical love in such a way that others can see the Lord Jesus Christ and come to a hunger and a thirst for Him. many years ago when I was a minister, I came to this conclusion and watched the Lord work in a sister who was living a life contrary to the 'christian walk' (many would have put her out of the church because of her lifestyle) and saw Him bring her to repentance and transform her into a shining eample of His life. this was such an eye opener for me. I have also watched others in authority put a dear sister and brother out of the church fellowship because they disagreed with the elders. I am still sick over that one!! where is the love of Christ in this act?
I sense the problem for many is the stricter end of the fundies that is so hard and disciplined that they cannot bend or accept others who hold different views. it is not just the baptists. the same goes for the churches of Christ, the closed brethren, the pentecostals, even in the reform churches. up here the Canadian reform are very strict and believe everyone outside of their memberside is outside the communion of saints. it is a sad state we find the church in. why are we surprised by this, after all it is full of humanity. when men can die and allow Jesus as Lord to live through them, then and only then will you see a change.
until then, pray that you can die to self and let Jesus live in you.
Blessings to you all!!
Gideon said, I tend to agree. Only because I was part of a Fundamental "Bible Believing" Baptist cult. While they claim the bible as their only rule or measurement for living and faith. they are way off target in interpreting its precepts. Fundamental Baptist and just that, Fund a mentalist. People whom fund them are literally Funding Mentalist experts whom know how to pry on the minds of their congregations. They are always presumptuous, their doctrines are corrupted, and they use scare tactics to mezmerize the minds of their members; by frightening them into submission. They usually tell their congregations if you do not do this; God will do that, etc. They are most certainly, the most wicked group of so called saints that I have ever seen. They try to use other people's tragedies as a means of promoting themselves. They are easy to spot and stick out like sour thumbs.
Gideon said, I tend to agree. Only because I was part of a Fundamental "Bible Believing" Baptist cult. While they claim the bible as their only rule or measurement for living and faith. they are way off target in interpreting its precepts.
You know, I have never understood the rationale behind people calling every group they don't like a "cult." I've got to tell you that for every Baptist who has been civil to me, there have been a dozen who have told me I'm going to Hell because I don't believe as they do. So, generally speaking, Baptists are not exactly my favorite group of people. But would I call them a "cult"? No way. It just doesn't make sense to throw out that label any time we don't like someone. Jim Jones and the People's Temple -- now that was a cult. Let's use the word a little more sparingly.
The apostle Peter demonstrated all the characteristics of a "fundamentalist." James was installed as the leader at Jerusalem and Peter took a lower seat.
The apostle Paul, while being exceedingly zealous, was tempered by a wider exposure to Moses, Psalms and Prophets and having grown up under milder circumstances and milder mannered parents and teachers who were members of the Pharisees.
The apostle John, not having training as a Pharisee as Paul, not having a family to support as Peter, and being younger with less adult tensions, was over-all milder than Paul and/or Peter. Jesus gave John another blessing in the gift of Mary and his work to care for her.
Barnabas and Apollos are two other major works of God that highly influenced the early believers. They moved in different ways in their work to witness to the risen Christ and the eternal purpose of God in Jesus' priesthood.
The differences in doctrine and disposition and the unity in spirit of all these works of God in Jesus Christ is delicately woven in the fabric of the New Testament record. Let us understand the manifold wisdom of God.
Eojj
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so true... the fundies are not the only christians that are guilty of squabbling over what they claim is 'biblical'. I believe the bible as the inerrant word if God. sure there may be some grammatical errors from trying to translate the original languages to our modern languages. thoughts get lost in the translation. how often does what the intent of one person's writings get twisted by what another person understands? I have been dragged before the elders a couple of times because they misunderstood what I said from the pulpit. it was like the telephone game...they heard something totally different than what I said. possibly we have our own thoughts and when we hear something that challenges them, we take offence, then we stop at that point and miss everything that is said or written. 
