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Anyone i know who believes in UR believes they are justified by faith , but the faith we are justified by is of God.
You seem to want to claim your part in it . Jesus said it's the Father that draws us , the scriptures tell us "he works in us both to will and to do ofhis good pleasure", that "he will complete that which he started inus", that "he's the author and finisher of our faith" ,that "of our ownselves we can do nothing" and yet you still want to say it's something about us ????
We love him because he first loved us . What is the reason we love him again ??
All of this is true; however, you presume to apply this to all people whereas I would note that this passage is only referring to believers, who were given faith, thus marking the beginning of God's work in their life to bring them into full fellowship with him. You keep missing the point that I am making. God gives us faith, He gives us the ability to believe. However, you refuse to believe that people can be so hardened that they are numb to God. Lucifer was in His very presence and he still fell, are we humans immune to this? Can we not be numb to God? For God to be the finisher of faith, you must first have it. Jremy is right. You are so focused on making God out to be love that you neglect to realize that He is holy and just. Holy by definition means to be separate. God must be separate from sin. If you do not have the blood of Jesus, then you still retain your sin, thus God will not spend eternity with you because you carry the grossness of your iniquity. You want to use this whole idea of purification after death, and yet I have not seen any passages that uphold such a notion as that. Frankly, it sounds a lot like purgatory. What separates the universalist notion from Catholics?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
It was his love that caused me to believe without a shadow of doubt , not the awfulness of my sin , but that he could love me inspite of the awfulness of my sin.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
If the scripture tells us we were powerless , please tell me how there is power in our will not only to live righteously but to believe by our own will ? .
It was by the miraculous power of the love of God that changes a man brings him to repentance and leads him in the path of life.
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little
I am convinced unless you are exposed to the love of God nothing absolutely nothing changes with in us . It's the very thing a believer abides in and is rooted in. Ephesians 3 verse 17, John chapter 15,1 Cor 13.
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole familya in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
If it takes the power of God to grasp the awesomeness of his love for us, how much more does this have to be true for those of us who were/are dead in sin ?
How can you dispute this ?
The foundation of the believers life is love and God is Love .
Your right. It does take the power of God to understand His awesomeness, which is more than just his love; it also includes His holiness and just right to rule and judge. But a lot of people just don't care. These people hate God and all that He stands for. God can, and most likely will reach out to them, but there are just some who won't listen or believe. What is God to do with them? You can fight all you want, but you still have to explain to me why your whole theology of purification after death for unbelievers is completely missing from the most important book regarding the afterlife in the Bible. You want to push this idea of purification and sanctification for all, but nowhere in Revelations is that mentioned. Furthermore, in the passages I highlighted about faith, you still have not mentioned why some of the passages I highlighted say the Christ will only come to save those who believe? Why even Scripture narrows down who will and will not be saved? Riddle me this.
All of this is true; however, you presume to apply this to all people whereas I would note that this passage is only referring to believers, who were given faith, thus marking the beginning of God's work in their life to bring them into full fellowship with him. You keep missing the point that I am making. God gives us faith, He gives us the ability to believe. However, you refuse to believe that people can be so hardened that they are numb to God. Lucifer was in His very presence and he still fell, are we humans immune to this? Can we not be numb to God? For God to be the finisher of faith, you must first have it. Jremy is right. You are so focused on making God out to be love that you neglect to realize that He is holy and just. Holy by definition means to be separate. God must be separate from sin. If you do not have the blood of Jesus, then you still retain your sin, thus God will not spend eternity with you because you carry the grossness of your iniquity. You want to use this whole idea of purification after death, and yet I have not seen any passages that uphold such a notion as that. Frankly, it sounds a lot like purgatory. What separates the universalist notion from Catholics?
Your right. It does take the power of God to understand His awesomeness, which is more than just his love; it also includes His holiness and just right to rule and judge. But a lot of people just don't care. These people hate God and all that He stands for. God can, and most likely will reach out to them, but there are just some who won't listen or believe. What is God to do with them? You can fight all you want, but you still have to explain to me why your whole theology of purification after death for unbelievers is completely missing from the most important book regarding the afterlife in the Bible. You want to push this idea of purification and sanctification for all, but nowhere in Revelations is that mentioned. Furthermore, in the passages I highlighted about faith, you still have not mentioned why some of the passages I highlighted say the Christ will only come to save those who believe? Why even Scripture narrows down who will and will not be saved? Riddle me this.
So Nero if we are powerless of our ownselves as believers how much more true is for the unbeliever. The scripture below not only proves this but also proves your quote "Christ only will come to save those who believe" is simply not true
Jesus said ""No one can come to meunless the Father who sent me draws him"
I know, I used a passage that states that faith comes from Christ. But I keep noting the importance of faith, and you claim these people will be saved without every taking hold of the most important component of salvation as noted by Jesus, Peter, and Paul. Again, these people only believe once they are in God's presence and begin the stages of purification. Where's faith in that?
Actually, you still have to explain something then. If God isn't repulsed by sin to the point that He can't bear to be with it, then why did He look away from His own Son while He was bearing the sins of the world on the cross. Jesus took on the sins of the world, and His own Father couldn't even bear to look at Him. Why else would Jesus cry out, "Father, why have you forsaken me". Good try though, but you still failed. Furthermore, you have not even been able to reconcile the passages that both Ironmaw and I used. Both support the opposite stances, yet you haven't even tried to reconcile them.
Scripture also says that we are justified by faith, but most of you guys seem to want to neglect that point. I posted several passages that highlight this, and you guys still want to rely on the whole aion argument even though most of the passages used may not mention of eternal torment, but that salvation came through faith alone. And I agreed with you on the part where salvation comes from God, I used a verse to show that. However, justification comes by faith alone; you presume to say that faith is of no importance for those who are to be eventually restored. They get to see and believe. Salvation comes from God, but then you want to say that our love comes solely from God that we have no will to choose. How do you reconcile what happened in the garden with Adam and Eve? How do you reconcile the fact that we all struggle in our faith whenever temptation or strife comes at us? We do have the ability to choose. I never said salvation came from man, that's God's department. But men are to have a relationship with God; we walk with Him. Relationships are based on trust, intimacy, and love; how can any of this apply if to some extent we aren't allowed to choose? Otherwise, we are just a bunch of robots; and this is a pointless relationship because me and you love Him because He programmed us to, not because we genuinely care about what Christ has done for us. Christ pulls at our hearts, but we have to answer the call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Anyone i know who believes in UR believes they are justified by faith , but the faith we are justified by is of God.
You seem to want to claim your part in it . Jesus said it's the Father that draws us , the scriptures tell us "he works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure", that "he will complete that which he started in us", that "he's the author and finisher of our faith" ,that "of our ownselves we can do nothing" and yet you still want to say it's something about us ????
We love him because he first loved us . What is the reason we love him again ??
It was his love that caused me to believe without a shadow of doubt , not the awfulness of my sin , but that he could love me inspite of the awfulness of my sin.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
If the scripture tells us we were powerless , please tell me how there is power in our will not only to live righteously but to believe by our own will ? .
It was by the miraculous power of the love of God that changes a man brings him to repentance and leads him in the path of life.
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little
I am convinced unless you are exposed to the love of God nothing absolutely nothing changes with in us . It's the very thing a believer abides in and is rooted in. Ephesians 3 verse 17, John chapter 15,1 Cor 13.
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole familya in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
If it takes the power of God to grasp the awesomeness of his love for us, how much more does this have to be true for those of us who were/are dead in sin ?
How can you dispute this ?
The foundation of the believers life is love and God is Love .
Faith is a fruit of the spirit, it is developed over time within the heart of the believer. It is the temple of God which is built without the hands of men, as he dwells in each of us who believe individually, and within all of us collectively as his body and bride, the household of faith. Just as faith is the temple that is not built with the hands of men, so is it true that faith does not derive from the natural man, but is planted in the soil of our hearts and watered by the spirit of Christ. We are justified by Christ, and our faith is evidence of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, the gift of salvation which is Gods grace in Christs sacrifice and the faith he has planted into our heart is all of God.
Those who do not have faith are indeed now perishing. Even as we were perishing before we believed. What i believe many people do not understand is the role of the church in the plan of salvation. We are supposed to stand as an example of the love and light of God to the world, standing in the gap for the unbelieving world even as Christ is standing in the gap for us. We are priests not to other believers, but to those that do not believe.
Romans 11:30-31
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Yet many Christian claim that because of their unbelief they will not obtain mercy. We are supposed to be the way in which they obtain mercy ...
Faith is a fruit of the spirit, it is developed over time within the heart of the believer.
The gift of faith is the supernatural ability to believe God without doubt, combat unbelief, and visualize what God wants to accomplish. It is not only an inner conviction impelled by an urgent and higher calling, but also a supernatural ability to meet adverse circumstances with trust in God's words and messages.
The Bible speaks of several different types of faith which increase from faith to faith (Romans 1:17):
Saving faith - faith which gets you into Heaven
(Ephesians 2:8-9)
Fruit of faith - faith which gets Heaven into you
(Galatians 5:22-23) .
Gift of faith - stems from saving faith and the fruit of faith; It is the ability to believe for the miraculous
(II Thessalonians 1:3).
This gift not only operates in healings and in miracles, but in the realm of the impossible as well. Saving faith produces the active faith of the fruit of the Spirit which, in turn, produces the gift of faith. When the gift of faith is empowered, the results are miraculous!
Does anyone really believe that God can so care about the sparrow so much to the extent that not one will fall to the ground without his knowledge and yet create a place of eternal torment for man who he created in his own image ?
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Oh that God would open our eyes to see how valuable we his creation are to him.
You don't understand Pcamps, God is supporting sin - He wants sin to have dominion. He created a placed called Hell where He will have great joy in watching the wicked be tormented forever and Sin will be keeping them in their rebellion and causing them to continue to sin and curse Him. He wants Sin to have its own kingdom of rule forevermore. When Jesus said that he came to put down the works of the devil - He knew he didn't mean all sin. He meant only those that would choose him by their own power. God knew that He didn't want His Son to attempt to save those that didn't want to be saved. He only wanted him to save those that desires righteousness. He came to save those that wanted to save themselves only. The rest he hates and wants them to burn forever in complete agony. he wants their beloved family members to look upon it for the rest of eternity. He is going to see their sins of 100 years and raise them 100 * 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000 to the 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000+ power of torment because he is a JUST God that knows Justice better than others.
Now if you believed all that then your an eternal torment preacher. Realize the TRUE power of God - that can save all from their sins and run from such nonsense.
Sorry Pcamps, just playing off your post for effect, I know you believe God is all powerful and Just rather than that Eternal Torment stuff.
All of this is true; however, you presume to apply this to all people whereas I would note that this passage is only referring to believers, who were given faith, thus marking the beginning of God's work in their life to bring them into full fellowship with him. You keep missing the point that I am making. God gives us faith, He gives us the ability to believe. However, you refuse to believe that people can be so hardened that they are numb to God. Lucifer was in His very presence and he still fell, are we humans immune to this? Can we not be numb to God? For God to be the finisher of faith, you must first have it. Jremy is right. You are so focused on making God out to be love that you neglect to realize that He is holy and just. Holy by definition means to be separate. God must be separate from sin. If you do not have the blood of Jesus, then you still retain your sin, thus God will not spend eternity with you because you carry the grossness of your iniquity.
Quite right, and well said. This is why universalism is such a dangerous teaching. Not only is it an indirect assault upon the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ, it also relies on idolatry, picking and choosing the attributes of God that they find comprehensible while tossing out the rest in order to fashion a god that they like and understand. Concerning the former error, that it attacks justification by faith in Christ, it is very cruel. The universalist has no reason for telling others to believe and to repent, since, after all, they think that all things will be restored and everyone will be saved. And yet faith in Christ is the only means given by God to man whereby man can be saved. It is the sinner's only hope, and universalism effectively takes that away, whether intentionally or not.
Quite right, and well said. This is why universalism is such a dangerous teaching. Not only is it an indirect assault upon the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ, it also relies on idolatry, picking and choosing the attributes of God that they find comprehensible while tossing out the rest in order to fashion a god that they like and understand. Concerning the former error, that it attacks justification by faith in Christ, it is very cruel. The universalist has no reason for telling others to believe and to repent, since, after all, they think that all things will be restored and everyone will be saved. And yet faith in Christ is the only means given by God to man whereby man can be saved. It is the sinner's only hope, and universalism effectively takes that away, whether intentionally or not.
God sent Christ to save the lost. God sent Christ to restore people to his grace. God sent Christ to take on the sin of MANKIND..
In ET that is all a bunch of nonesense because ultimately if you don't do exactly what is laid out by the fundamentalists then you will spend eternity in hell...
So in your view Christ's death wasn't enough to stave off the wrath of God..right? Christ's death wasn't enough to save all the lost.. only some. Christ's death only restored some of the people to God's grace not all mankind.. right?
So you believe that Christ's death was meaningless unless the person chooses the right way to go?
Or do you believe that Christ's death destroyed sin and death for all mankind?
ET - Christ's death has limited application and is unable to save people unless the person approves it.
CU - Christ's death has unlimited application and is able to save people regardless of whether the person approves it.
Christian Universalism believes that God will do what he set out to do: Save all mankind from their sin.
I believe God will do what he said he would do.. do you?
Quite right, and well said. This is why universalism is such a dangerous teaching. Not only is it an indirect assault upon the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ, it also relies on idolatry, picking and choosing the attributes of God that they find comprehensible while tossing out the rest in order to fashion a god that they like and understand. Concerning the former error, that it attacks justification by faith in Christ, it is very cruel. The universalist has no reason for telling others to believe and to repent, since, after all, they think that all things will be restored and everyone will be saved. And yet faith in Christ is the only means given by God to man whereby man can be saved. It is the sinner's only hope, and universalism effectively takes that away, whether intentionally or not.
I think you will find firstly that wrath and judgement are not attributes of God and secondly that before you believed and ever heard of the gospel the words wrath and judgement never meant eternal torment to you , so why all of a sudden have you failed to comprehend the true the meaning of words ?
Quite right, and well said. This is why universalism is such a dangerous teaching. Not only is it an indirect assault upon the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ, it also relies on idolatry, picking and choosing the attributes of God that they find comprehensible while tossing out the rest in order to fashion a god that they like and understand. Concerning the former error, that it attacks justification by faith in Christ, it is very cruel. The universalist has no reason for telling others to believe and to repent, since, after all, they think that all things will be restored and everyone will be saved. And yet faith in Christ is the only means given by God to man whereby man can be saved. It is the sinner's only hope, and universalism effectively takes that away, whether intentionally or not.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
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