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I'm a preterist at heart, scio. I don't believe God performs the awe-inspiring miracles HE did in the Old Testament, the parting of the Red Sea stuff, anymore. But it could be argued that the establishment of the nation of Israel, winning the war that immediately followed, the Suez war of 1956, and most prominently the war of 1967 and the recapture of Jerusalem and the narrow victory in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 would qualify as miracles of the first order----to me, the ONLY bonafide gargantuan miracles of the last century, if not the last 2000 years. Now I don't necessarily attach any prophetic significance to Israel in the 20-21st centuries. My question about Amos was posed as a possibility. My best guess about Israel is that God had His mighty Hand in all this because it could not have come off on its own anymore than a skinny 80 lb runt going against 100 Hells' Angels (look at me date myself) could emerge the victor. I believe it's possible He reestablished Israel to honor His commitment to Abraham but could just as easily wipe Her out again for Her unbelief as He did with the Babylonian and Roman incidents because He is not bound by any prophetic promises to keep the Israelis in the land for eternity at this present time. Maybe in the distant future.
I'm a preterist at heart, scio. I don't believe God performs the awe-inspiring miracles HE did in the Old Testament, the parting of the Red Sea stuff, anymore. But it could be argued that the establishment of the nation of Israel, winning the war that immediately followed, the Suez war of 1956, and most prominently the war of 1967 and the recapture of Jerusalem and the narrow victory in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 would qualify as miracles of the first order----to me, the ONLY bonafide gargantuan miracles of the last century, if not the last 2000 years. Now I don't necessarily attach any prophetic significance to Israel in the 20-21st centuries. My question about Amos was posed as a possibility. My best guess about Israel is that God had His mighty Hand in all this because it could not have come off on its own anymore than a skinny 80 lb runt going against 100 Hells' Angels (look at me date myself) could emerge the victor. I believe it's possible He reestablished Israel to honor His commitment to Abraham but could just as easily wipe Her out again for Her unbelief as He did with the Babylonian and Roman incidents because He is not bound by any prophetic promises to keep the Israelis in the land for eternity at this present time. Maybe in the distant future.
Read the latter half of the book of Hebrews. The promises that were made to Abraham were ultimately fulfilled in the New Covenant. The inheritance was a "heavenly country."
The Bible teaches and shows the contrast of two cities...I guess you could call it "The Tale of Two Cities." Paul brings this out in Galatians 4. Earthly Jerusalem and heavenly Jerusalem. One from below and one from above. One of the flesh and one of the Spirit.
The physical city lost any significance when it's physical temple was destroyed and quite literally wiped off the face of the Earth.
Please explain in more detail, mike. Is Jerusalem of any significance in God's eyes today as a city in either Jewish or Arab possession? is there any significance in God allowing it to be restored to Israeli possession in 1967? Is there any significance in allowing it to be retained in Israel's possession after all this time? Would God allow Jerusalem to be taken back by Arabs just as readily as He allowed it to fall out of their hands? If Jerusalem does fall back into the hands of the Arabs after war would it be by God's Hand or just a normal historical event much like Iraq fell to America in the Iraqi war?
Please explain in more detail, mike. Is Jerusalem of any significance in God's eyes today as a city in either Jewish or Arab possession?
The Jerusalem from above yes...The one that existed in Paul's day...Not anymore.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
is there any significance in God allowing it to be restored to Israeli possession in 1967?
The question isn't whether or not God allowed it as much as the political posturing that took place that made it happen in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It didn't just happen over night or in one day as some make it out to be. It to many years to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Is there any significance in allowing it to be retained in Israel's possession after all this time?
Sure...The British and American political and military forces and money made it all happen. Without their support and funding it couldn't have happened. The history behind it is fascinating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Would God allow Jerusalem to be taken back by Arabs just as readily as He allowed it to fall out of their hands?
It didn't just fall out of their hands. The Arabs had been promised the land in exchange for their help in World War I. But they got the back end of a dirty deal and they didn't have a World super power and money behind them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
If Jerusalem does fall back into the hands of the Arabs after war would it be by God's Hand or just a normal historical event much like Iraq fell to America in the Iraqi war?
I don't believe that there is anything that happens apart from God's hand. He's delivered Jerusalem to foreign hands before.
I'm still not clear about this apart from the fascinating history behind it all. Please help. The Jerusalem that sits in Israel today. Is it still the apple of God's eye? Is God still actively moving Jerusalem on the world stage according to His Plan, or is everything happening in Jerusalem today just an act of history that God allows without actually taking part in it? For example, I don't believe any prophecy is being fulfilled today, so in the Iraqi war I believe God allowed Saddam Hussein to fall but He didn't cause it, we did. In Israel in 1967 did God will that Jerusalem fall to Israel according a Plan He has, or did He merely allow it to just as He might allow it to fall back into Arab hands again if the Arabs are strong enough to take it back?
"A few days after the war(1967) was over 200,000 Jews flocked to the Temple Mount and Western Wall in the first mass Jewish pilgrimage since the destruction of Temple in 69 CE. However, the Israeli government subsequently left the Islamic wakf in control of the site"
If God's hand really was in all of modern day activity over there control would have been given back to the Islamic wakf?
Hate to say it...If God was behind it, there wouldn't be all this back and forth business. Also...If God were behind it I find it hard to believe that Palestinian Christians would need to die to make it happen.
Hate to say it...If God was behind it, there wouldn't be all this back and forth business. Also...If God were behind it I find it hard to believe that Palestinian Christians would need to die to make it happen.
Then it seems that God knows what will happen to Jerusalem but He is going to steps back and allow historical events to take their normal course. If Iran gets a nuclear bomb and lobs one into Jerusalem, then God is not going to blow the bomb up in mid-air because that would be breaking the laws of nature, and anyway, the physical Jerusalem that we all see on TV is not the Apple of God's Eye anymore. It's just another city like New York or Detroit and not deserving of any special favor from God. But this would be inconsistent with Israel having beaten the Arab nations in 100 to 1 odds again and again. These victories in 1948 and 1967 can only be described in terms of miraculous because under normal circumstances a tiny country like Israel besieged by 10 Arab nations and coming out the victor each time can only be explained in supernatural terms, in other words God intervened supernaturally to give Israel the victory each time. This is just not computing in my mind. God is not inconsistent---helping Israel one minute and then leaving Her to chance the next.
Then it seems that God knows what will happen to Jerusalem but He is going to steps back and allow historical events to take their normal course. If Iran gets a nuclear bomb and lobs one into Jerusalem, then God is not going to blow the bomb up in mid-air because that would be breaking the laws of nature, and anyway, the physical Jerusalem that we all see on TV is not the Apple of God's Eye anymore. It's just another city like New York or Detroit and not deserving of any special favor from God. But this would be inconsistent with Israel having beaten the Arab nations in 100 to 1 odds again and again. These victories in 1948 and 1967 can only be described in terms of miraculous because under normal circumstances a tiny country like Israel besieged by 10 Arab nations and coming out the victor each time can only be explained in supernatural terms, in other words God intervened supernaturally to give Israel the victory each time. This is just not computing in my mind. God is not inconsistent---helping Israel one minute and then leaving Her to chance the next.
Not true...Israel had superior weaponry. Supplied by the U.S. It's never been a fair fight. Until the 1970's when Egypt was supplied weapons by the Soviets. Which changed everything.
It was never a fair fight until someone(Russia) supplied the Arab's with equivalent weaponry. Once the Egyptians had real weapons the outcome of the battle was a completely different story.
This whole "Against all odds" business is just great story telling by those futurist prophecy pundits that are trying to paint a rosy picture to invoke emotionalism in support of their ministries.
I'm sorry...But when you look at the facts, they just don't line up with some of the tales being spun.
The Palestinian Christians will tell you a different tale thrillobyte.
They are suffereing at the hands of Zionism.
Israel is of the spirit, where God had intended it to always be.
If you are a Preterist at heart, then there is no debate.
Either you are, or you aren't.
This is why I don't understand Preterist UR, it doesn't make sense. Either Christ/God has reconciled His people to Him, or He hasn't, thus implying a future prophetic redemption, which is contradictory to the Preterist paradigm. You can't have both.
His people, His church, is of the spirit, and has already been reconciled to Him.
No more prophecy. Over and end game. Now, heal the nations.
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