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The OP makes the assertion that "world" refers to a limited sense, such as the world of jewish custom, thus only indicating the world of believers or the world of the elect.
Yet when we come to the verse noted in the OP, 1 John 2:2, we can look at the surrounding context, and there is no indication that this word "world" should be limited. In fact it specifically says "whole world", indicating the whole, all of it, all sins of the world. This is also confirmed by other verses (1 John 4:14, 1 John 1:9, etc).
1 John 1:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Read that over. Where in the context does it suggest that "whole world" is not talking about everyone? There is no indication anywhere in this passage that "whole world" should be limited in any way. Why use language suggesting "whole world", if that is not what is meant?
The OP says that "whole world" cannot mean everyone because some people are punished in the lake of fire forever. But wait. If you have read my previous post you will see that is arguing based on presumption. If one does not presume eternal torment is true, then there is no reason to limit the meaning of "whole world" here. If you are going to claim "eternal torment" teaching limits 1 John 2:2, you had better be prepared to show that all the supposed "eternal hell" verses really teach it.
Furthermore, if this is not really talking about all people, why use language such as "world", or "whole world"? This is ambiguous at best, if the author did not mean every single person, for the scripture could have easily been written like this:
"...not only for ours, but also for the sins of all believers"
OR
"...not only for ours, but also for the sins of all elect"
etc.
Any translation like this would have clearly made the case for the OP. But that is not what it says. It specifically says "whole world". If scripture truly taught eternal torment, this verse would not have been written as is.
Jesus has propitated the sins for the whole world, and that is why every man will be saved.
1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
This verse destroys the idea presented in the OP.
God is the savior of two groups, one is inclusive of the other:
1. All men. Not all of them believe right now.
2. Believers, who are saved especially, because they understand the Love of God right now.
Now detractors will attempt to answer this verse in several ways, none of which are very satisfactory.
Some will say that the "especially" only means "exclusively". This is plainly not what the verse says. But in any case, if that were so, how would God be the savior of all men, if He doesn't save them? Some say God "saves" all men in a "temporal" way, by allowing them to live and prosper, right up until the point where He throws them all into fire forever. That doesn't sound like much of a savior to me, more like giving a death-row convict a steak dinner right before He is electrocuted.
Others say the "all men" is only "all types of men", thus really referring to "all types of men who are believers", but then why the second clause? The verse becomes redundant and meaningless:
God, who is the savior of all who believe, especially those who believe....
OR
God, who is the savior of all elect, especially those who believe....
Would that imply some elect don't have to believe in order to be saved?!? No, this is simply nonsense to avoid the plain meaning of the text.
And again, if we take away the presupposition that some men must be tormented forever, then there is no reason to come up with these ridiculous interpretations of a very plain reading verse.
The great length those who believe in ET will go to to promote ET is astounding.All means few , many means few , whole world means the world of christ .
It's dispicibly atrocious that Hitler sent millions to the heavens , but the fundamentalists don't bat an eye lid at the thought of God doing it .Any fair minded person would have to agree that to condone one for doing it and condemning another for the same thing is sheer stupidity . It would also leave any fair minded person that the nature of fire with God is of the purifying nature
I understand this verse of scripture much better in light of this fact
You travel over land and sea to win a single convert (A great length)
Understanding when Global Words like "All" and "World" should be limited
It is useful now to address when words like "all" and "world" can have a limited meaning. Can these words be limited whenever we feel like? No. Can they be limited by the surrounding context? Sometimes. But these words must still retain the meaning that they convey within that context: each and everyone, all things pertaining to, the whole thing, etc.
In general we can say: All must mean All unless there is a reason in the immediate context that it CANNOT possibly mean All.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world (KOSMOS) should be taxed.
For example: The OP is correct that Luke 2:1 is not talking specifically about every single person in the world, because the context cannot allow that meaning. The verse is simply referring to the realm of Caesar - his kingdom, which is his world. It still refers to ALL people in Caesar's realm.
This is similar if I would say this: I am going to travel and see the whole world.
Would you think I am going to see every location and person in the entire world? Of course not because that is impossible for a human. It is simply a figure of speech, perhaps an exageration.
But what if I say this: God sees the whole world.
Now there is no reason to limit the meaning of "world" here, as God is infinite and can see the whole world. There is no reason to limit the global meaning, thus we CANNOT limit the meaning. To do so renders the word meaningless.
Furthermore, if God for some reason could not see part of the world, we would be in error to write: "God sees the whole world" because now the statement is ambiguous. Are we really talking about the whole world or not?
This is what the OP and all Calvinist's do. Text is taken that clearly must have a global meaning, and it is limited because of a belief in eternal torment. But if eternal torment were true, the text should not have been written in such a way in the first place because it is ambiguous and in error.
1 Tim 2:4 is hotly debated. But the fact of the matter is, if God did not will/desire to save all men, 1 Tim 2:4 should not have been written as it is. The preceeding verses do not require the meaning of "all men" to be limited, thus we cannot limit the meaning arbitrarily.
If I say: "I will save all men" - clearly an exageration.
But if I say: "God will save all men" - yes, God could do it, so either that is what I meant, or I misspoke.
The OP makes the assertion that "world" refers to a limited sense, such as the world of jewish custom, thus only indicating the world of believers or the world of the elect.
In the context of John 3, it is in the Old Covenant World.
Quote:
Yet when we come to the verse noted in the OP, 1 John 2:2, we can look at the surrounding context, and there is no indication that this word "world" should be limited. In fact it specifically says "whole world", indicating the whole, all of it, all sins of the world. This is also confirmed by other verses (1 John 4:14, 1 John 1:9, etc).
1 John 1:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Read that over. Where in the context does it suggest that "whole world" is not talking about everyone? There is no indication anywhere in this passage that "whole world" should be limited in any way. Why use language suggesting "whole world", if that is not what is meant?
As I said in the OP, this is the "World of Believers" hence ...."little children..."
Quote:
The OP says that "whole world" cannot mean everyone because some people are punished in the lake of fire forever. But wait. If you have read my previous post you will see that is arguing based on presumption. If one does not presume eternal torment is true, then there is no reason to limit the meaning of "whole world" here. If you are going to claim "eternal torment" teaching limits 1 John 2:2, you had better be prepared to show that all the supposed "eternal hell" verses really teach it.
Lake of Fire, burning flame, ETC, deals with the "Old Covenantal world".
For example Universalist:
Why does Rev 20 involve two types of Dead?
One from the Death and Hades, and one from the Sea?
Quote:
Furthermore, if this is not really talking about all people, why use language such as "world", or "whole world"? This is ambiguous at best, if the author did not mean every single person, for the scripture could have easily been written like this:
"...not only for ours, but also for the sins of all believers"
OR
"...not only for ours, but also for the sins of all elect"
etc.
Like I said....hence :"Little Children" sets the stage of the 1 John 1:
Therefore, he is speaking to whom?
1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1 Tim. 4:10 is referring to God in particular and not necessarily Jesus in particular. Does the title "God" include Jesus? Of course, since Jesus is God in flesh (Col. 2:9), the Savior. God, who is a Trinity, is called Savior in Psalm 106:21; Isaiah 43:3; Luke 1:47; 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; Titus 1:3-4; and Titus 2:10. It is obvious that the term refers to God in the generic sense of being the Savior of all men since He brings salvation to all though it is not accepted by all. This is why it says that God (not Jesus) is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. How is it especially to believers? Simple. It is especially and specifically realized only by those who are believers. This has nothing to do with limited atonement, for Christ became SIN. He did not die for mankind, but died for the sins of mankind. He becasme the substitutionary sacrifce for SIN in man. Man must Profess his belief to be saved Romans 10 - Christ's efficacy is limited, because if man's inability to profess due to his rebellion of salvation. Limited profession, not limited atonement.
Universalism cannot remove the scripture form its context, like it redundantly does on every level. 1 Tim 4 has been proven against UR, again. Next?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-05-2010 at 01:50 PM..
Understanding when Global Words like "All" and "World" should be limited
In their context, they should be translated, which you appear to fail at each and every time.
The rest of this post is presuppostions based on zero exegesis. It is pure opinion and assumptions involving 21st cenutry mindset. All I ask is that you provide and exegesis of your claim, which you haven't, but only imposed your thoughts onto the scripture. The OP has numerous of scriptures backing up its claims, and I expect you and all other universalists to do the same. If you cannot, then your paradigm fails in this subject matter.
I am not looking for a tit-for-tat argument. What I want is a scholarly approach to the scripture. Interpret it with itself, and then we can go somewhere, but until then, it is fruitless and pointless to impose your opinions. This is called eisegesis. Step up to the plate. I won't address assumptions.
I don't want 21st century mindset, I want 1st century application and interpretation, use the scripture, or stay out of the debate.
The scripture was NOT written to us, but for us. Start there, and you can go anywhere with it and rightly divide it.
It is almost universally agreed among all denominations of Christianity that every knee and every tongue (and I mean every single individual who ever existed) will one day bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. And this is with good reason, because scripture clearly teaches us this. It also makes sense logically as God is, to put it simply, awesome. All will bow when they are in the full presence of His love.
Psalm 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Romans 14:11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Psalm 22:29 ...all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
You can find many more references to this universal act of bowing and praising if you wish.
Are any of these cases limited in the sense of only pertaining to the "world of Jewish custom"? No of course not. It should be clear from the language used. If we look at the meanings for "bow", "confess", "swear", we also find out some interesting details:
- all will swear allegiance to Christ
- all will worship Christ
- all will praise Christ
- all will joyfully and willingly acknowledge and confess to Christ
- all will sing His praises
So given this, the OP presents a contradiction. Why are those not loved by God praising His name and swearing allegiance to Him?
For that matter, where are these alleged people who "don't want to be saved"? Sounds like all want to come to Christ at some point.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
God is faithful, and will forgive and purify all when they all bow and confess.
And YES I KNOW 1 John 1 is written to believers, but it doesn't change God's character. He is still faithful to forgive anyone who confesses.
Like I said....hence :"Little Children" sets the stage of the 1 John 1:
Therefore, he is speaking to whom?
Believers.
Yes of course 1 John 1 is written to believers. Does this need to limit the meaning of "Jesus propitating for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"?
No of course not. We MUST ONLY limit the meaning of global terms when the context demands it CANNOT literally have a global meaning. There is no such need to do that here.
Furthermore, if such limited meaning is what was intended, the verse should have been written in a manner that would not be ambiguos.
Again, I will address these very points I have done in the past? It really gets repetitive. I am starting to think it is just rebellion. You Unie's have no interest in seeing things from another perspective.
Quote:
It is almost universally agreed among all denominations of Christianity that every knee and every tongue (and I mean every single individual who ever existed) will one day bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. And this is with good reason, because scripture clearly teaches us this. It also makes sense logically as God is, to put it simply, awesome. All will bow when they are in the full presence of His love.
Psalm 45:23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance
Romans 14:11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Psalm 22:29 ...all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
You can find many more references to this universal act of bowing and praising if you wish.
This has nothing to do wth the OP, and has been addressed before, and rightly refuted. It has only to do with the kingdoms being defeated under Satan's rule, the resurrection of the dead. Again, the UNiversalist employs another OFF TOPIC subject to hammer his point which has been refuted.
But here you go:
Everyknee and every tongue shall confess........
Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
This is a direct reference to the Parousia and the resurrection of the dead - which both events simultaneously happens....this is a direct reference that Christ is deity. This is a direct reference in where God has declared that He has not cast off Old Covenant Israel, and will judge them according to the law He had given them. Paul declares this as such. However, today, since that time, God has no special relationship with any nation, apart from Christ. Hence...every knee shall bow......True New Israel...their knees.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
In Romans 11, Paul said God at that time, had a remnant according to the election of grace. This means not everyone in Israel, as in the Old Covenant illustration, but a remnant was being saved by grace, not the works of the law.
For that reason, the nation had not obtained what it sought, but the elect (the remnant) obtained it and the rest of Israel were blinded - Rom. 10:7 - He then added prophecies from Deut. 29:3, 4;
Isa. 29:10; Ps. 69:22,23, to speak of disobedient Israel.
Their fall of the majority in the nation, brought salvation to the Gentiles, not so the blinded could fall, but to provoke them to jealously that they might claim their own God through Christ.
Therefore, Paul wanted to save some of those who were his brethren according to the flesh.
True Israel is not the children of the flesh, but the children of the promise - Rom. 9:6–8.
Isaiah 45 completes the prophecy of what Paul had uttered in reference to it, in Romans 14
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
He is speaking of Israel...Old Covenant Israel...to give account of their works, dead or alive.
The discourse of this never changes, the audience is the same, and the focus is Israel, Paul's brethren.
Quote:
Are any of these cases limited in the sense of only pertaining to the "world of Jewish custom"? No of course not. It should be clear from the language used. If we look at the meanings for "bow", "confess", "swear", we also find out some interesting details:
- all will swear allegiance to Christ
- all will worship Christ
- all will praise Christ
- all will joyfully and willingly acknowledge and confess to Christ
- all will sing His praises
So given this, the OP presents a contradiction. Why are those not loved by God praising His name and swearing allegiance to Him?
For that matter, where are these alleged people who "don't want to be saved"? Sounds like all want to come to Christ at some point.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
God is faithful, and will forgive and purify all when they all bow and confess.
And YES I KNOW 1 John 1 is written to believers, but it doesn't change God's character. He is still faithful to forgive anyone who confesses.
You answered yourself in bolded. I suggest you stick to the context.
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