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Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Yeah everyone remembers how all the cities of the nations fell at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD ... Its in all this history books!
REV 11 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
REV 17 16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
so who are the ten horns who "gave" their kingdom to the beast ( which u say is rome ) before they burned "the *****" with fire ??? and who were the 2 witnesses ???
see you have very big problems Jerusalem surely doesnt sit on many waters neither does rome or iraq.. of coarse you could argue that romes empire spread out to include many waters or iraq/ babylon had the tigeras & eurphrates but its far more descriptive if you read it and when did the lamb overcome them also Jerusalem didnt reign over the kings of the earth
REV 11 1....I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters:
12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Actually...Josephus would disagree with you if I remember correctly. It's been a while since I read it...But nonetheless if I remember correctly he actually said that Jerusalem was quite the trading hub at that time. Also...Consider what James had to say in James 5:1-3.
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days."
Those that had been oppressing the followers of Christ had become rather wealthy in the last days. And this was the problem. They had put their trust in the wealth that they had accumulated because they thought wealth was a sign of favor from God. But they were hoarding it rather than spreading it. And it was ill gotten wealth.
Also even now we stereotype Jews as being excellent with money. In fact there has been many a kingdom with a Jewish financial guru on staff.
And boy did the Romans rake in the treasure when they destroyed the temple...
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Yeah everyone remembers how all the cities of the nations fell at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD ... Its in all this history books!
Sorry ... No cheddar ...
“[Judea] was parted into eleven portions, of which the royal city Jerusalem was supreme and presided over all the neighboring country as the head does over the body†(Josephus, The Jewish War, book 3 chapter 3).
Apostate Israel is the system and Jerusalem is the Great City...
The cities of the land of Judea including the great city fell in 65-70 AD as the Romans swept the land fighting against the Jewish revolt. Then the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem began fighting amongst themselves...
The whole of Revelation is parallel to the account of the fall of Jerusalem. IMO
“[Judea] was parted into eleven portions, of which the royal city Jerusalem was supreme and presided over all the neighboring country as the head does over the body” (Josephus, The Jewish War, book 3 chapter 3).
Apostate Israel is the system and Jerusalem is the Great City...
The cities of the land of Judea including the great city fell in 65-70 AD as the Romans swept the land fighting against the Jewish revolt. Then the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem began fighting amongst themselves...
The whole of Revelation is parallel to the account of the fall of Jerusalem. IMO
The word "nations" is plural ... It is not only the cities of one nation being referred to ... This word ethnos is also never used to refer to Israel even once in the new testament. It is the same word used for heathen and gentiles, thus it cannot be referring to the nation of Israel. The cities of the nations is referring to the cities of the gentile nations ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-12-2010 at 06:10 AM..
The word "nations" is plural ... It is not only the cities of one nation being referred to ... This word ethnos is also never used to refer to Israel even once in the new testament. It is the same word used for heathen and gentiles, thus it cannot be referring to the nation of Israel. The cities of the nations is referring to the cities of the gentile nations ...
Consider the fact that the New Testament didn't even exist when Revelation was written. Just a bunch of letters being circulated.
All throughout Israel's scriptures...The Old Testament...The tribes were referred to as nations.
Deal with the OP...Point by point if you really want to get somewhere.
Consider the fact that the New Testament didn't even exist when Revelation was written. Just a bunch of letters being circulated.
All throughout Israel's scriptures...The Old Testament...The tribes were referred to as nations.
Deal with the OP...Point by point if you really want to get somewhere.
I am dealing with the OP, the OP is about mystery Babylon which is spoken of in the book of revelations. And John said when Mystery Babylon would fall, that the cities of the gentile nations would fall as well ... If you ask me, you are simply ignoring this fact and trying to make excuses in order to steer the debate in a different direction because this is evidence that full preterism is false.
Many people over the years have asked the question...Who or what is this Babylon we find in the book of Revelation. Some have suggested that it is speaking of Rome or the Catholic church. Or any number of modern day cities.
However the answer to this question is found within the pages of the New Testament.
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Major Premise #1: The city of Babylon found in Revelation no less than 9 times is called the "great city."
Minor Premise #1: Revelation 11:8 tells us that the "great city," is the city where Jesus was crucified.
Conclusion #1: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.
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Major Premise #2: Revelation 18:24 tells us that in Babylon was found the blood of prophets and saints.
Minor Premise #2: Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:30-35 that Jerusalem was guilty of shedding the blood of the prophets.
Conclusion #2: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.
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Major Premise #3: In Revelation 18:4 a voice from heaven said, "Come out of her my people."
Minor Premise #3: The only city that God's people were ever told to flee from was Jerusalem concerning it's destruction in that first century generation(Luke 21:20-21).
Conclusion #3: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Major Premise #4: The blood of the apostles, prophets and saints was avenged in and through the destruction of Revelations Babylon(Revelation 18).
Minor Premise #4: The only city Jesus ever said would be destroyed because of the blood of the apostles, prophets and saints was Jerusalem(Matthew 23 & 1 Thess 2:15-16).
Conclusion #4: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Major Premise #5: Jesus said in Luke 13:33 For it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
Minor Premise #5: Revelations Babylon was drunk with the blood of the prophets and in her was found the blood of the prophets(Revelation 18).
Conclusion #5: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.
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So...As we can see...From an exegetical survey we can see that the Babylon found in the pages of Revelation is none other than the city of Jerusalem.
Just to let you know in case you did not ... There are many futurists who believe the mystery Babylon to be Israel ... Tex Mars is one example. Yet this has nothing to do with preterism.
Eschatology is of minor concern . . . since it will be what it will be no matter what we believe about it. Prophecy is also useless as future prediction and we are told NOT to engage in divination . . . hard to see a difference there. Prophecy is best used AFTER it has occurred as confirmation of the inspiration and reliability of the prophecy, period. The amount of time and fruitless effort spent on Revelation (the most obscure and symbolic prophecy) is pointless, IMO.
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