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This is where I think you are not seeing with eyes of faith. The Old covenant manifests, as well as foreshadowes, our spiritual blessings in Christ. We were justified and we were sanctified in Christ in God's eternal will, before the foundation of the world:
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Christ was slain for us from the foundation of the world:
Rev 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
The manifestations of our spiritual blessings, ie: justification, sanctification and glorification, are revealed to us in time. Justification (objectively manifested) at the cross, reckoning (subjectively so) at regeneration, and our glorification (subjectively so) in the resurrection.
In God's divine counsel, all of these events have been completed. They are all past tense:
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Do you see the difference here?
I absolutely see the difference, but the manifestation wasn't, or isn't complete until the resurrection of the dead. This is my point. Mankind was/is not fully justified until this event. The Parousia, was/is the complete manifestation of justification. God foreknew all that was to transpire, and since He is outside of time, then did Christ die in the beginning? Does the scripture actually say that? No. What happened in the garden was merely a shadow of what was to come, and deciding that it was Christ, is beyond the scripture. Think about this, before the universe was created, before time existed, before man was created, God knew that we (in Adam) would sin. He knew we would rebel against our Creator. And in the wisdom and love of God, in eternity, He predetermined a plan so that we could receive a free gift of salvation. In eternity, God planned for the Son of God to step into history to provide the ultimate sacrifice—the sinless Son of God would suffer sin’s penalty of death, be raised from the dead, thus providing a way of salvation. That is the message of the Creation story, and in part, of Rev 13:8.
Looking at Rev 13:8, I think you have erred in its interpretation slightly. The book of Life is the subject in reference to the "foundation of the world", as so is the Lamb Slain. They are in reference to each other, in that the book of life/living, would later be transformed into what we see in the NH and NE as the Lamb's Book of Life. The context of Rev 13 is dealing with the martyrs of the beast system, and their endurance and preserverance during this trying time. In scripture, there are two books, the Book of the Living/Life, and the Lamb's Book of Life/Book of Life of the Lamb. They are the same book, but like I pointed out in my previous post, OC concealed, NC revealed. The first book deals with Israel, corporately, under the Mosaic Law of Works, and the Lamb's Book of Life deals with the transitional/millenial period saints that inherit the first resurrection.
Both books, first the Living, was founded from the foundation of the world (as so was the plan of redemption), and the second, is the fulfilment of that book under the New Covenant.
In the Book of Life of the Lamb, there is no "blotting" out, but under the first there is...why is this? Because of the covenant of works. Israel married God at Sinai at consummated her inheritance in the book of life, but upon disobedience, their names were "blotted" out. The same goes for the seven churches, they are judged by their works, under the Mosaic system, as it was "passing" away, to be transformed into the realization of the New Covenant that was "mello/about to come".
Rev 13:8 deals with the blessings of the transitional period saints who inherited what no other saint in OC, or transitional period/non-martyred saint would recieve. Rev 20 is strict about this inheritance, and they must be "killed/murdered/presevered" for their faith in Christ....i.e. Stephen able to see Heaven open up for him, and he gave his body "saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." He did not descend into Hades like everyone else.
He went straight to Heaven. The first resurrection began at Christ's resurrection - Matt 27:53, a sign of what was to come, and continued throughout the Millenial/Transitional period while Israel, Spiritual Israel, was in the wilderness, the Woman, went completely apostate. Rev 17
An in depth study of the entire book of Romans shows the connection between Israel in the Wilderness, and the the 40 Year transitional period between Christ's ascension and descent in judgement and parousia.
Anyway, I hope that helped.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-13-2010 at 01:34 PM..
I absolutely see the difference, but the manifestation wasn't, or isn't complete until the resurrection of the dead. This is my point. Mankind was/is not fully justified until this event. The Parousia, was/is the complete manifestation of justification. God foreknew all that was to transpire, and since He is outside of time, then did Christ die in the beginning? Does the scripture actually say that? No. What happened in the garden was merely a shadow of what was to come, and deciding that it was Christ, is beyond the scripture. Think about this, before the universe was created, before time existed, before man was created, God knew that we (in Adam) would sin. He knew we would rebel against our Creator. And in the wisdom and love of God, in eternity, He predetermined a plan so that we could receive a free gift of salvation. In eternity, God planned for the Son of God to step into history to provide the ultimate sacrifice—the sinless Son of God would suffer sin’s penalty of death, be raised from the dead, thus providing a way of salvation. That is the message of the Creation story, and in part, of Rev 13:8.
This is where I think we differ in our faith. I actually lean towards supralapsarianism, albeit a modified version of it. I do not believe, however, that scripture teaches a final reprobation of any, unlike most in reformed theology. This you may or maynot agree with me on. It was a possibility, but I don't believe scripture allows it to be a final reality. Everything, both good and evil (as we perceive it to be), is ordained in the eternal decrees of God, but only for the final good of all, to be manifested in time.
Which leads us to God who not only ordains a way of salvation for all, but has also decreed the actual blessings themselves, that all will partake in. This too is where I see a difference in our views of redemption.
Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
Act 15:18 `Known from the ages to God are all His works;
When I see God covering Adam and Eve in the garden with skins, this is a manifestation, as well as a foreshadowing, of my Justification from eternity, that is fulfilled objectively in Christ at the cross, and subjectively within me at regeneration.
Anyway, you've got way to much going on in your posts, so I'll just leave my comments to this, for now. I do see how you interpret scripture though, in the light of Pretreism, but I've not really looked deeply enough into it, as yet.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 02-13-2010 at 02:42 PM..
Reason: typo
When I see God covering Adam and Eve in the garden with skins, this is a manifestation, as well as a foreshadowing, of my Justification from eternity, that is fulfilled objectively in Christ at the cross, and subjectively within me at regeneration.
What I see, in regards to the covering of Adam and Eve in skins, is the acceptable sacrfice for sin, a shadow of the sin offering, which is a shadow of Christ's offering. I agree with all your points and beliefs above, but as Paul lamented over, his righteousness was not complete and fully justified until the resurrection of the dead as per Phil 3. This had to transpire for Israel to become one church, under the prophetic word of God to Abraham, who was indeed jusitifed by faith, and imputed therein, however had not been completely manifested in the Parousia and judgement. LIke I said, the covenant of Old was that of works and faith, and the covenant of new was of faith in Christ alone. Faith was already justified in that I agree, it was the works end of the covenant that had to be fulfilled, and it was, completely...not one jot or tittle as it was "passing away".
Hmmm, that is definitly a good question. As a Christian, I have to admit that the majority will go to Hell. Way Less than 5% I would say. I thought that would have reflect more on the poll. God himself said it would case the ungodly to Hell. Then why the majority think that everybody will be save? What happend to Hitler? I am happy that God is just. There is only two possible way according to the bible, Heaven and hell. There is not annhilation, reincarnation or purgatory. You have to repent of your sin and believe in Jesus. Remember, no wicked will enter the kingdome of Heaven.
I'm just curious about the 7 people who voted that less than 1% of the Earth's population is going to be saved. I'm pretty sure they figure they're among that 1%. I just want to know who they are. How about it? Who are those 7 lucky people?
Hmmm, that is definitly a good question. As a Christian, I have to admit that the majority will go to Hell. Way Less than 5% I would say.
So, I'm guessing that you believe you are among the 5%, tonnerre. Since the world's population is 33% Christian right now, you obviously think that most of those people are not going to make it. Why do you think you are?
I'm just curious about the 7 people who voted that less than 1% of the Earth's population is going to be saved. I'm pretty sure they figure they're among that 1%. I just want to know who they are. How about it? Who are those 7 lucky people?
I was wondering the same thing ...
It would have been nice if the Original Poster had checked the option ...
"Make votes public: Displays all users who voted, and what choice they voted for."
It would have been nice if the Original Poster had checked the option ...
"Make votes public: Displays all users who voted, and what choice they voted for."
Then we could know who voted how ...
I know! Seriously, I find this kind of self-righteousness so over the top! Less than 1% of the billions of people who have ever lived will be saved, but I'm one of them. Jeesh!
I honestly don't have a clue as to how many people are going where and for how long.
But I do know this: in the end EVERY CREATURE will be singing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!". Revelation 5:13
I honestly don't have a clue as to how many people are going where and for how long.
But I do know this: in the end EVERY CREATURE will be singing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!". Revelation 5:13
AMEN to that!!
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