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Old 02-15-2010, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,412,407 times
Reputation: 427

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Kat,

If you want to interact with me, I need an apology for your rude statement you made to me the other day.

 
Old 02-15-2010, 01:53 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,926,613 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama, you just delfected my question. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Again:

Do you believe that the man is given a second chance after he dies?
I don't believe in chances...Neither in this life or the one to come. God does not work "with chances", either first or second.

The scriptures state that God does and will save without any ambiguity. It is going to happen. And I'm not going to be the guy who denies it...LOL That's the best answer I can give you.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,441,119 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I am my friend. Objective justification is that which is being spoken of and will ultimately lead to glory:

Please look at the word justified in Romans 4:5:

Rom 4:5 τω G3588[BUT TO HIM] δε G1161 μη G3361[THAT] εργαζομενω G2038(G5740)[DOES NOT WORK,] πιστευοντι G4100(G5723)[BUT BELIEVES] δε G1161[ON] επι G1909[HIM] τον G3588[THAT] δικαιουντα G1344(G5723)[JUSTIFIES] τον G3588[THE] ασεβη G765[UNGODLY,] λογιζεται G3049(G5736)[IS RECKONED] η G3588[HIS] πιστις G4102 αυτου G846[FAITH] εις G1519[FOR] δικαιοσυνην G1343[RIGHTEOUSNESS.]

That is the same word used here in Romans 8:30 when speaking of God's eternal decrees:

Rom 8:30 ους G3739[BUT] δε G1161[WHOM] προωρισεν G4309(G5656)[HE PREDESTINATED] τουτους G5128[THESE] και G2532[ALSO] εκαλεσεν G2564(G5656)[HE CALLED;] και G2532[AND] ους G3739[WHOM] εκαλεσεν G2564(G5656)[HE CALLED,] τουτους G5128[THESE] και G2532[ALSO] εδικαιωσεν G1344(G5656)[HE JUSTIFIED;] ους G3739[WHOM] δε G1161[BUT] εδικαιωσεν G1344(G5656)[HE JUSTIFIED,] τουτους G5128[THESE] και G2532[ALSO] εδοξασεν G1392(G5656)[HE GLORIFIED.]

We are talking about objective Justification in God's eternal decrees, on the merits of Christ alone. Not the subjective reckoning of it that comes through faith.

Reckoning happens in time through faith. And it too will happen for all in regeneration. Objective justification happened at the cross. It is this objective justification that will bring all to regeneration and to final glory, in the end.
Here is a classic example of the two:

Subjective: in blue
John 3:36 (New International Version)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him




Subjective (in blue) and Objective (in green)

John 3:16 (New International Version)


16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Eternal life is conditional on "whoever believes in him". Eternal life is only offered while living, where it was finished.

 
Old 02-15-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,485,426 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Kat,

If you want to interact with me, I need an apology for your rude statement you made to me the other day.
FUMBLE?

I didn't realize I made a rude statement to you.. Refresh my memory if you will, so I can make a better apology (and not make the same mistake again) ...but in any case my intent is never to be rude so you always have an apology from me.

Better?
 
Old 02-15-2010, 02:01 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,926,613 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Your Romans 4 quote is about Abraham who was justified by faith while Abraham was alive, not about the work of salvation being offered beyond death.
Actually, Abraham was reckoned to righteousness when he believed the promises of God:

Gen 15:5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, `Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, `Thus is thy seed.'
Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.

When we believe the promises of the Gospel and the declarations of God, that God justifies the ungodly, we too, like Abraham, are reckoned to righteousness.

Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,485,426 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here is a classic example of the two:

Subjective: in blue
John 3:36 (New International Version)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him




Subjective (in blue) and Objective (in green)

John 3:16 (New International Version)


16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Eternal life is conditional on "whoever believes in him". Eternal life is only offered while living, where it was finished.

But twin.. you are assuming that if someone doesn't have eternal life then they are doomed to destruction, right?

It doesn't say that. The conditions for having eternal life are as you say. Yet if you go by the definition of eternal life as Jesus defines in John 17 then you will see that the opposite of eternal life is not knowing God and Jesus whom he sent.

If you could find something more specific to not having eternal life equating to punishment after death (whether annihilation or fiery torture) that would help.

Here it is saying that if you REALIZE (believe) your salvation in Christ, you will live an enjoyable life with knowledge of God.

If you don't REALIZE (believe) your salvation in Christ, you will live with God's wrath.

What is God's wrath? Strongs says it is passion, indignation... and is from thuo; passion (as if breathing hard) -- fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare psuche.

And is the same as the word thuella which is used once in Hebrews 12:
18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm [thuella];

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
29for our “God is a consuming fire."


He is comparing the physical mountain that Moses was afraid of to the spiritual mountain of the living God because it will increase and is more powerful thus he is more powerful than the sin/sinner not the other way around... IMO

Anyway my point is that I think there is a misconception about what exactly being under God's wrath entails.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,412,407 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
FUMBLE?

I didn't realize I made a rude statement to you.. Refresh my memory if you will, so I can make a better apology (and not make the same mistake again) ...but in any case my intent is never to be rude so you always have an apology from me.

Better?
You called me dense in another thread, so I did not reply to you post. But yes, that is better..thank you.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,485,426 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You called me dense in another thread, so I did not reply to you post. But yes, that is better..thank you.
Oh I remember now.. It was just a passing comment.. I truly thought you were just trying to complicate matters to show a point not that you were dense.. So I am sorry.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,412,407 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I don't believe in chances...Neither in this life or the one to come. God does not work "with chances", either first or second.

The scriptures state that God does and will save without any ambiguity. It is going to happen. And I'm not going to be the guy who denies it...LOL That's the best answer I can give you.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying. I guess that doesn't make you a "Lake of Fire redemptionist". However, in 1 Tim 2:4...thelo is not Divine Will....but thelēma. Two VERY differnet concepts.
 
Old 02-15-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,441,119 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But twin.. you are assuming that if someone doesn't have eternal life then they are doomed to destruction, right?

It doesn't say that. The conditions for having eternal life are as you say. Yet if you go by the definition of eternal life as Jesus defines in John 17 then you will see that the opposite of eternal life is not knowing God and Jesus whom he sent.

If you could find something more specific to not having eternal life equating to punishment after death (whether annihilation or fiery torture) that would help.

.
I'm assuming? based on what?...

I'm not making the case that salvation is offered beyond death, that is totally the UR arena. I can't make you believe just like those who Jesus addresses on his left. The offer of salvation ends at death.

Which was the point of Jesus' rich man \ Lazarus. Both died, both judged, one in heaven, the other in hell tormented.

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
__________________________________________________ __________

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Kat, please don't bother with a counter "yea.....but it doesn't say this or that"...... it does. God's wrath isn't UR.

Again Kat, it's not a puzzle.
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